Rollo62

However, I now see things completely differently. I have to deal with EU compliance rules for various products and see new rules and regulations being pushed through almost daily, regardless of the consequences. This is not about lobbying, but entire industries are being dismantled for an ideological agenda. This whole agenda is being driven by the USA as a pioneer and when someone there coughs up a new regulation, I already take the whole thing very seriously and prepare myself for the worst.

Regarding the search for arguments: I would not rely on language alone, but I always consider the libraries and frameworks built on this language too. Maybe it is a vague argument, that the language + libraries = can be ( more or less ) memory safe? What I mean by this, is to embrace the use of smart-pointers and forbid to use POC, by help of all possible external tools, strict guides and library tricks. Yes, the underlying language alone is not memory safe and can be forced to fail, but the whole ecosystem could have a degree's higher memory safety index, IMHO, if the libraries are structured well. I did something like this centuries ago, as a kind of simple script language for machine control, which was based on C++ and its wonderful pre-processor. The language could be abused, but the functionality offered by the core library would enforce a higher level of safety than plain C++ alone. Would that be something workable for Delphi too, at least to get it half-way memory safe?

There is another timer implementation within Kastri https://github.com/DelphiWorlds/Kastri/blob/a1ae5aec3146e4c4c61999e2ce8adcb281474a64/Core/DW.OSTimer.pas#L4

Maybe that helps for your considerations? https://github.com/grijjy/DelphiPlatformTimerQueue https://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/2014_may_background_delphi_android_threads.html

Hi there, it seems that Apple moves more and more from Objective-C to Swift, especially for the new APIs, like RealityKit 2 https://developer.apple.com/documentation/realitykit. That would mean Delphi / Firemonkey needs a way to bind with Swift, if no Objective-C might be available. Has someone maybe checked about such Swift binding, and what pitfalls may be there ? I would expect that Swift can handle more features, that cannot really converted to Delphi, but thats just my assumption. Who could give more light to this ? Edit: I had an older post in the german DP, see here, as a kind of cross-post to this topic.

Whishlist: At the moment and in the future, I would like nothing more than for the IDE to always run with all its functions, demos, features as agreed, on all platforms. So that all breaking changes can be communicated and fixed in good time before important AppStore deadlines come into force and that the existing apps can be permanently well maintained. I avoid touching new functions for quite a while now, to limit the pain caused by adding new, half-supported features.

Hi there, I'm currently considering how far I should update my tools and devices, to find random errors. The upgrade process from D11.3 to D12 stuck a bit, and I'm now in between D11.3 and D12 somehow. Since the latest D12.0 supports iOS17.x, but unfortunately doesn't seem to support Device debugging any longer. http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/PlatformStatus/en/Main_Page#cite_ref-iOS17_3-0 http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/PlatformStatus/en/Main_Page#cite_note-iOS17-3 https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode-release-notes/xcode-15_3-release-notes The question is, how far I should update my devices and tools, what is the best strategy to survive that breaking change. I highly rely on iOS debugging under D11.3, as the last resort to make reasonable tests ( since Android debugging didn't work for a while either ). Without that, the development will be even more hard than it is today. Currently, I want to investigate crashing on an iOS 17.3.1 device, which my latest iOS 16.7.5 device doesn't show. I'm afraid, this will be only possible by upgrading to XCode 15.2 then, as XCode 14.3.1 doesn't support iOS 17 at all. This will kill my ability to debug on real hardware, since I only have x86 Intel Mac available and I'm also out of the ability to use a simulator ( which I really don't want either ). So my hope it, that using XCode 14.3.1, with running and debugging on an iOS 17 device somehow, will be possible, to find issues. Does the latest Patch 1 changes anything on the debugging situation? My question is, to which XCode, IOS versions I shall safely update, when I still need to debug devices? Are there any tricks or workarounds available? The worst case will be to end up with mobile development, where neither iOS nor Android debugging works reliable.

That would be great, but I do see certain different behaviors when I run the iOS 16 App release via TestFlight on an iOS 17 device. Those issues will be hard to find without proper debugging. I think so too, any ideas when a fix will be available? The deadline is around April, I assume from then XCode 15 is hardly required, or allows Apple a grace time until our IDEs will be fixed? Would be great if there would be any official statement about this issue and the status of fixing it. I have iOS 16 and iOS 17 device available, but only a MacBook (Intel), so I cannot use the simulator ( which I also would not put in the ring, if not really needed ). Regarding the XCode internal changes, I'm not clear about how deep they were, but I expect the worst from what I have read so far. If you have more insights about the relevance of the changes, it would be great to get more info. I would assume that linker, debugger, PAServer and a lot more functions were affected.

Yes, but if you touch the Location already in FormCreate, then the permission request comes later, and this will be problematic. That was my point.

Yes, I need debugging on devices, because I need to debug external devices too. Without debugging, this turns out to be a real pain, although I have implemented massive logging meanwhile. In the past debugging worked reliable sometimes on Android, sometimes on iOS / Macos, but always some way to go. In D12 and XCode 15 it seems not to work any longer, no matter what. Another way out would be to imp,ement the according Win32 functions, to at least debug there, but also this is not running out-of-the-box. Before I put too much energy into XCode 15, I better try with the last version, ... time is NOT on my side

It seems that unfortunately nobody else has some more insights regarding Sonoma and XCode 14.3.1 vs. XCode 15.2, so I want at least post my current results here. With the method described, see above, it seems that I could successfully (trick)-install XCode 14.3.1 under Sonoma (Intel), including normal debugging function under iOS and Macos. At least this works for iOS 16.4 devices so far, which is the latest SDK offered, although the iPhone has installed iOS 16.75. I have not yet made experiments with iOS 17, but I will try soon and see how this might behave. At the moment I tested only the Rx12.0 version, without the latest IDE patch, so my next move will be to check the behavior of the Patch 1.

Yes, the location is called asynchronously. I also would not stress the system directly in FormCreate, with the activation of Location, where it is still loading and initializating. Better to do that at a later time, maybe FormShow, or even better, manually controlled on demand by your own code only. I'm not sure if you asked for PermissionRequest correctly, because I cannot see something similar like this in your code. The result should be in mainUI thread, but to ensure that this is true you can use ForceQueue, to protect this against mysterious situations. I know that Android systems might forgive many of such issues in debug mode, but clearly is at high risk to fail in release and PlayStore. procedure Tfrm.FormShow(Sender: TObject); begin DoLocationActivate; end; procedure Tfrm.DoLocationActivate; begin TPermissionsService.DefaultService.RequestPermissions( [LPermissionLocationF, LPermissionLocationC] // PermissionResult , procedure ( const APermissions: TClassicStringDynArray; const AGrantResults: TClassicPermissionStatusDynArray ) begin if ( ( Length( AGrantResults ) <> 2 ) or ( ( AGrantResults[0] <> TPermissionStatus.Granted ) ) or ( ( AGrantResults[1] <> TPermissionStatus.Granted ) ) ) then begin exit; //user doesnt grant access end; TThread.ForceQueue( // this should not be necessary, but just to ensure that Active := True is really called in the main thread only procedure begin LocationSensor.Active := True; end ); end ); end;

Have you performed a PermissionRequest before?

It stays strange, the tip in the link works partly: When unzipped and copied XCode to /Applications ( about 24 GB ), then I used this command "open /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/MacOS/Xcode" first time This looks promising, starting a UI asking which components to install, I kept the checked Macos and iOS frameworks Then it prepared something but seemed to crash. When I started a second time, it give output like this in the terminal, but doesn't start really in normal mode. The default interactive shell is now zsh. To update your account to use zsh, please run `chsh -s /bin/zsh`. For more details, please visit https://support.apple.com/kb/HT208050. username$ /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/MacOS/Xcode ; exit; 2024-02-20 13:16:59.811 Xcode[5677:87640] Regex scanner "(null)" shouldn't have a Tokenizer. Ignoring it. 2024-02-20 13:16:59.940 Xcode[5677:87640] WARNING: Secure coding is not enabled for restorable state! Enable secure coding by implementing NSApplicationDelegate.applicationSupportsSecureRestorableState: and returning YES. 2024-02-20 13:17:00.246 Xcode[5677:87640] DVTCoreDeviceEnabledState: DVTCoreDeviceEnabledState_Disabled set via user default (DVTEnableCoreDevice=disabled) 2024-02-20 13:17:00.256 Xcode[5677:87704] CoreSimulator detected version change. Framework version (885.2) does not match existing job version (857.14). Attempting to remove the stale service in order to add the expected version. objc[5677]: Class _EntryGenericToGL is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59ce28) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a83c0). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class _EntryGLToGeneric is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59ce78) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a8410). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYPixelFormatConverter is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59cec8) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a8460). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class ASVError is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsCore.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsCore (0x13c111268) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsASVC.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsASVC (0x13c0177c8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYGPUDerivedEncoderCounterInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184098) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c7c8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYGPUTimelineInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c1840e8) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c818). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYTimelineCounterGroup is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184138) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c868). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYWorkloadGPUTimelineInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184188) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c8b8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class GRCPerFrameDataClass is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/MTLToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/MTLToolsShaderProfiler (0x14e17b858) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91ccc8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYShaderAnalyzerNextGPU is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/MTLToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/MTLToolsShaderProfiler (0x14e17b808) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/Library/GPUTools/PlugIns/GLToolsShaderProfilerMobileSupport.gtplugin/Contents/MacOS/GLToolsShaderProfilerMobileSupport (0x150fd8610). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. Looking through more of the comments, I see something like this: Where I don't really see how this might help the VisualStudio, probably this will only use the commandline tools, ad not the UI. It seems to work maybe from a different location: The latst hint seems to work, after using a PList editor. I used "JSON PList Buddy" for that, here is what I have done. At least XCode is back for the moment, but I'm looking towards the next showstoppers soon. If Apple really doesn't want us to use XCode, they will finally win.

It stays strange, the tip in the link works partly: When unzipped and copied XCode to /Applications ( about 24 GB ), then I used this command "open /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/MacOS/Xcode" first time This looks promising, starting a UI asking which components to install, I kept the checked Macos and iOS frameworks Then it prepared something but seemed to crash. When I started a second time, it give output like this in the terminal, but doesn't start really in normal mode. The default interactive shell is now zsh. To update your account to use zsh, please run `chsh -s /bin/zsh`. For more details, please visit https://support.apple.com/kb/HT208050. username$ /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/MacOS/Xcode ; exit; 2024-02-20 13:16:59.811 Xcode[5677:87640] Regex scanner "(null)" shouldn't have a Tokenizer. Ignoring it. 2024-02-20 13:16:59.940 Xcode[5677:87640] WARNING: Secure coding is not enabled for restorable state! Enable secure coding by implementing NSApplicationDelegate.applicationSupportsSecureRestorableState: and returning YES. 2024-02-20 13:17:00.246 Xcode[5677:87640] DVTCoreDeviceEnabledState: DVTCoreDeviceEnabledState_Disabled set via user default (DVTEnableCoreDevice=disabled) 2024-02-20 13:17:00.256 Xcode[5677:87704] CoreSimulator detected version change. Framework version (885.2) does not match existing job version (857.14). Attempting to remove the stale service in order to add the expected version. objc[5677]: Class _EntryGenericToGL is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59ce28) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a83c0). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class _EntryGLToGeneric is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59ce78) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a8410). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYPixelFormatConverter is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsServices.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsServices (0x14e59cec8) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsAdvancedUI.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsAdvancedUI (0x14d3a8460). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class ASVError is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsCore.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsCore (0x13c111268) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GPUToolsASVC.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsASVC (0x13c0177c8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYGPUDerivedEncoderCounterInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184098) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c7c8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYGPUTimelineInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c1840e8) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c818). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYTimelineCounterGroup is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184138) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c868). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYWorkloadGPUTimelineInfo is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/GPUToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GPUToolsShaderProfiler (0x13c184188) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91c8b8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class GRCPerFrameDataClass is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/MTLToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/MTLToolsShaderProfiler (0x14e17b858) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/PlugIns/GPUDebugger.ideplugin/Contents/Frameworks/GTShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/GTShaderProfiler (0x14f91ccc8). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. objc[5677]: Class DYShaderAnalyzerNextGPU is implemented in both /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/SharedFrameworks/MTLToolsShaderProfiler.framework/Versions/A/MTLToolsShaderProfiler (0x14e17b808) and /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/Developer/Library/GPUTools/PlugIns/GLToolsShaderProfilerMobileSupport.gtplugin/Contents/MacOS/GLToolsShaderProfilerMobileSupport (0x150fd8610). One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined. Looking through more of the comments, I see something like this: Where I don't really see how this might help the VisualStudio, probably this will only use the commandline tools, ad not the UI. It seems to work maybe from a different location: There seems another way, described later on, by changing the CFBundleVersion, but I can't get this running also Any ideas? Maybe I should purchase a plist-editor, to get this done, with the existing tools.

OMG: It's worse. It seems XCode 14.3.1 is not running on Sonoma anymore, why . https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/731005 Is this the case, or is there any hack how this can be done? Updating Apple products is always a pain in the a**, but this time it really seems to break my workflow completely. So do I have to upgrade to XCode 15.2, or is there any way out?

Hi there, from a very early startup of an iOS project, I've got the following exception, when stepping over simple variables. ( RadStudio Rx11.3 ) These are same stuff for a bunch of similar sets, just several similar Excludes() like this, so nothing fancy: Exclude( LFeatCurr.States.State, Grant_FG ); Exclude( LFeatCurr.States.State, Granting_FG ); Exclude( LFeatCurr.States.State, Grant_BG ); Exclude( LFeatCurr.States.State, Granting_BG ); All variables and other stuff is tested and seems OK so far, where the exceptions seem to be thrown mostly at the last-before position, but maybe also at other positions randomly. The same project worked fine so far during debugging. Message: "Invalid Thread ID: -1" [6C6C1392]{dbkdebugide280.bpl} Debug.TProcess.GetThreadFromId (Line 8835, "Debug.pas" + 7) + $1C [6C6B31A1]{dbkdebugide280.bpl} Debug.TDbkBreakpoint.DoHandleWhenOccurs (Line 2384, "Debug.pas" + 10) + $9 [6A529962]{gdbdebugide280.bpl} GdbDbkWrapper.TDbkBkptWrapper.BreakpointHits (Line 1181, "GdbDbkWrapper.pas" + 2) + $B [6A6765CE]{gdbdebugcore280.bpl} GDBProcess.TGDBProcess.NotifyBreakpointOccurred$ActRec.$0$Body (Line 2338, "GDBProcess.pas" + 8) + $1A [71E015BF]{rtl280.bpl } System.Classes.CheckSynchronize (Line 15785, "System.Classes.pas" + 34) + $A [6BCF6E97]{fmx280.bpl } FMX.Platform.Win.TPlatformWin.ThreadSync (Line 3503, "FMX.Platform.Win.pas" + 3) + $2 [71E05C1C]{rtl280.bpl } System.Classes.StdWndProc (Line 18517, "System.Classes.pas" + 8) + $0 [717D5263]{vcl280.bpl } Vcl.Forms.TApplication.ProcessMessage (Line 11488, "Vcl.Forms.pas" + 23) + $1 [717D52A6]{vcl280.bpl } Vcl.Forms.TApplication.HandleMessage (Line 11518, "Vcl.Forms.pas" + 1) + $4 [717D55E5]{vcl280.bpl } Vcl.Forms.TApplication.Run (Line 11657, "Vcl.Forms.pas" + 27) + $3 [00DB80A2]{bds.exe } bds.bds (Line 227, "" + 16) + $2 At that time, only 5 threads were active in the debugger, and they look pretty much OK too. What puzzles me is the relation to VCL in the exception data above. Maybe that means the exception is caused by the IDE or debugger himself, or there is anything else running terribly wrong. I will try to restart & retry, but would like to ask with these data inspection first, to clarify if this is maybe a known behavior and to identify the culprit here. So far I see this kind of "external" debugger exception for the first time.

All objects under same layout and managing layers and groups with TLayout: Yes, definitively. Not sure what kind of "opacity" you need, but you could also put finally a TRectangle as cover over all, with Align := Contents, and set HitTest := False, Stroke.Kind := None, File.Color := White (or Black depending on your design), and set Opacity as you desire. This will "grey out" the underlying objects, while they are still active.

You o ly can use APK for Debugger, Switch from Project Relese to Debug, that should Do it.

Why, this is a typical problem for young start-ups that have developed brand new and fancy products that have suddenly and unexpectedly gone incredibly viral, but unfortunately, they have not 100% stable infrastructure and business processes yet. Their main goal would be to stabilize all processes and infrastructures as quickly as possible so that they do not disrupt and hinder the delivery processes created by the hype surrounding their fancy products.

At least, DocWiki looks OK to me. Praise the Lord, it's back again

You should cleanup the expired certificates in keychain. Apple dislikes ambiguent certificates there.

Have you checked the right 32/64 bitness of APK and Phone OS ? Oh, no, it could be this one https://en.delphipraxis.net/topic/10704-delphi-12-and-android-14/

Good to hear that D12 is so successful that datacenters starts boiling Move on like that

That might be the case, but I see another typical problem on the horizon. I call it the "case solved" problem, where one might think a case is solved once for all, never considering that there may lie any hidden problems inside. Especially with threads, this might lead to long and painful problem searches, if you are too sure about your initial solution. But you'right, depends on the case, which we don't really have seen right now.