Delphi 12.1 Amnesty price isn’t what I thought it was…

[Joseph MItzen 251]

12 hours ago, Brandon Staggs said:

You're not comparing like things.

 

Microsoft's development tools support their platform services, which is where they are making money. Embarcadero cannot treat Delphi the way Microsoft treats VS, because Embarcadero needs to make a profit on the development system while Microsoft doesn't. I have a hard time taking rants about pricing seriously when they say "Embarcadero should do it like Microsoft." They just cannot, and that should be obvious.

 

We all know that if we want bugfixes we have to pay for maintenance, and that they come mostly as new versions, not patches. It's part of the calculus of choosing Delphi. If you want it the way it's done with VS, best just move to VS. If you want to use Delphi, you have to put up with the extra overhead involved (in many aspects) of using what amounts to a niche product. 

This isn't correct. Microsoft's tools division is not a loss leader (it currently supplies 23% of MS' revenue). Jetbrains doesn't charge for bug fixes and they're not Microsoft. They're also not a random assemblage of different software products glued together into one company. Embarcadero struggles to make a profit on Delphi because the user numbers are so much smaller and an accumulation of missteps that long predate their purchasing the product. Embarcadero can't attract new users so they have to find more and more ways to squeeze money from the existing ones. It's also hard to upsell to existing customers since most of its products aren't for developers. That's the honest truth no one likes to say out loud.

I can't find more current numbers right now, but from 2013: "Microsoft also today announced that Visual Studio 2013 has sold over 3.7 million copies since its release less than five months ago." Prices then ranged from $1,000 to $13,000. They're obviously making a lot of money on Visual Studio! A publicly traded company doesn't choose to continue divisions that lose money (otherwise there would still be Windows phones and Zunes).

 

[Joseph MItzen 251]

12 hours ago, Al T said:

I'm just royalty pissed off at the "AMENSTY" pricing.  I really thought it was going to be $999 to with the idea you'll continue to pay that every year.  If they'd forgive my missing years and let me restart at the renewal pricing, I would continue to purchase it every year.  I'm just waiting for them to give me that chance to jump back on that bandwagon.  I really thought it was the "AMENSTY", but that hope was lost.

That's what the word "amnesty" is supposed to mean in this instance - a waving of penalties. I'm very surprised to discover it was just another sale. They're out and out telling you something that's not so to get you to call up a sales representative.

 

A former 20-year employee of Borland/Embarcadero's Delphi support once shared that they start having these sales whenever the sales team isn't making its target sales numbers for the quarter. It seems like that's a constant state now.

[JonRobertson 72]

42 minutes ago, Joseph MItzen said:

it's not normal to mix bug fixes and new features in the same update ... This is how all major enterprise software works

So Microsoft Windows Professional, SQL Server (not Express), and most of their other "Enterprise" software aren't enterprise software applications?

[Joseph MItzen 251]

21 minutes ago, JonRobertson said:

So Microsoft Windows Professional, SQL Server (not Express), and most of their other "Enterprise" software aren't enterprise software applications?

Apparently not. After just checking out their SQL Server update policies, I'm flabbergasted. This... this is not right. It's a nightmare. I remember when Oracle had a vulnerability where someone could log into a certain Oracle account without a password. I had an Internet-facing system set up at the time (fortunately not running Oracle). I checked the log the same day the Oracle vulnerability was revealed and there were at least 15 attempts to log in via that Oracle user account. THAT'S why you don't mix new features and updates. No one should have to choose between potentially introducing new bugs, vulnerabilities or incompatibilities and leaving a system vulnerable while a patch is tested.

 

I remember a Delphi user (David Erbas-White?) running into this problem with Delphi. A new Delphi release came out that fixed a show-stopping bug he was experiencing. However, code that used to compile no longer did. Barry used to say that "If it compiles, it's valid Delphi". Marco said to David "This never should have compiled in the first place". Now David was faced with the choice of either getting his bug fixed at the price of breaking his code and requiring some redesign and rewriting, or having his current code compile but still be buggy. That's not a choice anyone should have to make. It's especially bad if the bug fixes are bundled with changes that break compatibility.

 

As for the Windows OS, there's a reason the professional server space belongs to Linux of various flavors. Windows still hasn't figured out updating while Linux is moving to "atomic" updating for secure servers. In this setup, the file system is a read-only copy-on-write file system. This makes the system secure against malware. The update process is applied to a new file system snapshot. If it is successful, the OS is told to use the new snapshot on its next reboot (which will then be read-only as well). If for some reason this doesn't work right the system can always boot back into the previous snapshot.  Security and ease of updating with minimal downtime (all the updating can be done while the system is still running). In this design the applications are installed via a container system, allowing installation without reboot, enhanced security, isolation of the application from the OS, atomic updating, etc.

 

 

 

[Brandon Staggs 278]

10 hours ago, Joseph MItzen said:

This isn't correct. Microsoft's tools division is not a loss leader (it currently supplies 23% of MS' revenue). Jetbrains doesn't charge for bug fixes and they're not Microsoft. They're also not a random assemblage of different software products glued together into one company. Embarcadero struggles to make a profit on Delphi because the user numbers are so much smaller and an accumulation of missteps that long predate their purchasing the product. Embarcadero can't attract new users so they have to find more and more ways to squeeze money from the existing ones. It's also hard to upsell to existing customers since most of its products aren't for developers. That's the honest truth no one likes to say out loud.

I can't find more current numbers right now, but from 2013: "Microsoft also today announced that Visual Studio 2013 has sold over 3.7 million copies since its release less than five months ago." Prices then ranged from $1,000 to $13,000. They're obviously making a lot of money on Visual Studio! A publicly traded company doesn't choose to continue divisions that lose money (otherwise there would still be Windows phones and Zunes).

 

It is obvious to me that if Microsoft didn't have the massive platforms it has that there would be a lot less interest in their development tools. Also, their "divisions" are malleable and change depending on what they are trying to make their shareholders see. I don't know what is in their "tools division" but expecting me to believe that Visual Studio (comparing apples to apples here! Delphi - VS) makes up nearly a quarter of Microsoft's revenue is ridiculous, and phrasing it the way you have is a distraction.

 

I went to an ISV convention years ago where Microsoft's rep was literally giving away copies of the professional level of VS on disc to anyone who wanted it. You know why? Steve Balmer told us why when he rapped "Developers, developers, developers." It was about getting developers into their ecosystem and getting developers to support Microsoft's platforms. It was not about selling copies of Visual Studio, which I have been using for years and haven't paid a dime for it in over a decade.

 

Your comparisons to Embarcadero's database tools is also funny to me. I have never met a Delphi developer who uses Delphi because it's the best way to use Embarcadero/Idera  database solutions. I have met many developers who use VS because it is the best way to develop for Azure and Windows etc etc etc.

 

I'm not defending Embarcadero here, but I am interested in our base reality. It's silly to point to Microsoft as an example of how Embarcadero should run their business.

Edited June 6 by Brandon Staggs

[TazKy 0]

Well, I guess I am sunk.  I got my renewal notification today and was floored about the renewal cost.  Been a very loyal user of Delphi for almost 25 years and feel like I am being treated like a newbie.

 

Based on these facts, makes no sense to renew.  I primarily program for Android and was only renewing to keep up with Android version changes.

[Uwe Raabe 2058]

14 minutes ago, TazKy said:

I got my renewal notification today and was floored about the renewal cost.

Could it be that the quote contains something like Premium Update Subscription? If yes, ask for removing that. Sales are forced to add that when sending the first quote.

[corneliusdavid 214]

16 minutes ago, TazKy said:

I got my renewal notification today and was floored about the renewal cost

Check the renewal quote; if there are two lines, one is likely for "Platinum Support" which is totally unnecessary (at least in my opinion). On mine, that support cost adds $500 to the quote. I always respond and have them take that line off as I have NEVER requested it or needed it. That might help to bring the price back down to something reasonable.

[TazKy 0]

I will try it.  However, there should have been an opt out choice.

[corneliusdavid 214]

4 minutes ago, TazKy said:

there should have been an opt out choice.

There is--it's called, email back and request to opt out of that unwanted support line. 

[TazKy 0]

Thanks for your help.

[Brandon Staggs 278]

I wonder how many licensed users they have lost simply due to the fact that the customer didn't look at the line items and assumed the cost was out of reach.

 

On the other hand, I also wonder how many totally unnecessary "support upgrades" have been paid for and never used.

[TazKy 0]

Yep.  I  always do a comparison by looking at the year before and this year's invoice was doubled.  Interesting this is that I have the pro version and the brand new price is something close to 1,500.  The renewal this year on the invoice is around 1,000.  No renewal is that high percentage wise.