Something the comunity should be aware of

[dummzeuch 1505]

For what it's worth: We hired a new Delphi developer about 4 years ago (because the one we hired 10 years ago left). And we are constantly creating new and improving old programs that are used internally, and some that are used in our parent company and sold to costumers who buy our custom built measurement vehicles or data.

We recently started a new tool that required Delphi 10.2 features and even bought two new licenses for that. And I'm waiting for Delphi 10.4 in the hope that one particular bug in the IDE has been fixed that prevented another new tool to move forward.

 

But we might be an exception, because I'm a fan of Delphi and I'm making most of the decisions regarding the development environment. Maybe my successor will decide to drop all that "legacy" stuff and start rewriting everything with "modern" technology. If he is lucky, the company might even survive such a move, barely, and with a software department of 10 instead of 3 people. But hey, that would create 7 new jobs.

Edited May 26, 2020 by dummzeuch

[Bill Meyer 337]

40 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

The problem isn't the compiler -- it's the 3rd-party components like Dream Components that died on the vine and couldn't easily move forward.

 

If they want to fix the problem, Embt should consider buying the rights to these old component libs and investing their own resources in making them work on the latest versions of Delphi. Add them to GetIt and give people a legitimate upgrade path. Whoa! What a novel idea! Still, a lot of folks still won't consider upgrading because it's harder than ever to find developers with solid Delphi skills today.

The old components are A problem, and certainly can be significant. I've dealt with this in the past, and am doing so now. And it is not only that old components are an issue, but that it is common to find in legacy projects large numbers of components, because there was a natural tendency to want to try the latest shiniest toys. This wide range of components to be replaced increases the technical debt to be paid. And yet, I would not want Embarcadero to expend monies and development resources bringing these into compatibility with current compilers. (And which current compilers, come to that?)

43 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

Another option is to have a separate maintenance program for legacy products. I have not found a single job in the past decade doing NEW Delphi work -- it's all supporting LEGACY apps that were written in the D4-D7 years. Maybe they're using newer versions of the compiler, but it seems silly to me that the company is COMPLAINING about the fact that all of these old legacy clients are refusing to pay their ridiculous maintenance fees to stay exactly where they are. It's nice that Embt wants people to move forward, but until more jobs start showing up for NEW DELPHI PROJECTS, they're doing little more than Sisyphus pushing a rock up a hill while complaining about the effort involved.

This I would doubt to be practical. Look at the current license fees. Those seem insufficient to pay for the extent of improvements we would all like to see, but you would divide these resources to apply some portion to legacy issues? That will clearly work against the rapid advancement of the product.

47 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

The world is moving to Open Source Software. Delphi is one if the few remaining products that's not just NOT OSS, but VERY EXPENSIVE for commercial use.  Microsoft subsidizes the crap out of their dev tools, as do others like IBM and Oracle. I think the best thing for Delphi would be for Embt to push to get Delphi acquired by a company that can afford to move it in the direction of OSS by subsidizing it from other product revenues. Instead, they keep raising the costs to customers who are mostly using it to MAINTAIN OLD CODE.

OSS is such an interesting swamp. For Embarcadero, the obvious problem is revenue, which the rising license fees suggest is less than they wish it to be. I fear that part of the problem is that they (like politicians) fail to adequately consider that the relation between fees and revenues is elastic. Doubling the fee will not double the revenue, as it will drive some not to renew. Basic economics. But will any company wish to buy Delphi to take it to OSS? The world perceives that Delphi is dying. They need not be right, as perception drives action. Idera, having spent a good deal (we assume) to acquire Embarcadero, will want a good deal for it. That suggest the need for an OSS company with deep pockets. How many such exist? And as they are almost universally committed to C and C++, where would be their motivation? Acquisition of a market of uncertain size for a product which many choose not to renew annually? Further, OSS is itself no guarantee of future success.

50 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

This is a MARKETING PROBLEM for Embt. I don't think they have any right to complain when they have steadfastly maintained a posture that has gotten them exactly nowhere in the market. There's no evidence that their products are being used for more NEW product development than to support LEGACY projects. Where's the beef? Or rather, Where's the NEW work?

In case you missed it, the consistent mantra has for years been that we (the market) are clueless about marketing. And about the relative merit of improvements, enhancements, and repairs. And that is an inescapable part of how we came to be where we are now.

 

I can envision many changes which I think would be beneficial for the future of Delphi, but as none of us is in possession of any meaningful data regarding market, revenues, and so on, it is purely speculative.

[Attila Kovacs 629]

Doesn't this network license cost you mobility? What about notebooks, travelling, home office, etc..? Do you carry a shadow VM with your notebook which runs in the background? 

 

What is EMBT's problem with a 20 year old application? They should have make it free/abandonware long time ago if they don't want to take care of it anymore.

 

But wait! There was a campaign in July 2015, buy Delphi XE8 and get an old version free of choice for free with it! Including Delphi 7!

 

So what exactly is EMBT's problem? Nothing, which could't be managed in 5 minutes with some internal changes.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Attila Kovacs

[Bill Meyer 337]

13 minutes ago, Attila Kovacs said:

Doesn't this network license cost you mobility? What about notebooks, travelling, home office, etc..? Do you carry a shadow VM with your notebook which runs in the background?

The net license needs to reach the server at least every 30 days, so you are not on a very short leash. On the other hand, if the doors closed, you could be toast in 30 days.

[Darian Miller 361]

On 5/25/2020 at 2:52 AM, Uwe Raabe said:

You just have to make sure that all these machines can connect to the ELC Server and you are logged in at these machines with the same user name the license is bound to (you can change that yourself in the ELC Server).

 

 

Now that 10.4 is out... what's the "proper" way of updating ELC to add a new version?   I poked-n-hoped and it allowed me to continuing installing 10.4 but there doesn't seem to be much information available.

 

Any guidance is appreciated!  Might make a good blog post...   : )

 

[Darian Miller 361]

On 5/25/2020 at 2:52 AM, Uwe Raabe said:

You just have to make sure that all these machines can connect to the ELC Server and you are logged in at these machines with the same user name the license is bound to (you can change that yourself in the ELC Server).

 

 

Now that 10.4 is out... what's the "proper" way of updating ELC to add a new version?   I poked-n-hoped and it allowed me to continuing installing 10.4 but there doesn't seem to be much information available.

 

Any guidance is appreciated!  Might make a good blog post for you...   : )

 

 

(Apologize for duplicate posts, mouse clicked too fast!)

Edited May 26, 2020 by Darian Miller

[Uwe Raabe 2057]

• Open the ELC web interface and go to License Hosting.
• Enter your credentials and the certificate as given by Embarcadero.
• Click Host Licenses.
• Select the proper license and again click Host Licenses.
• Got to Licenses.
• Click on License Files and download the slip files (zipped).
• Extract the named license slip file.
• On each installation open License Manager and import that slip file.

[Guest]

It just hit me after reading Attila's post, let us imagine that Embarcadero released those old versions of Delphi as freeware, (without the Community Edition restrains), i mean real freeware that can make you money and your company too, and here my thoughts ( Pros and Cons) about it:

1) Will it hinder their sales, may be slightly, if there any, because if there is already a person/company using older Delphi to make living then he already having it, as for the new comers, let them come and make living of it, sooner or later when they are financially able, they will buy the better tool.
2) Will it increase the chance of been adopted in bulk, i think so, even i can imagine it brought back to schools, those aren't current customer and most likely will not be, based on the current expenses attached.
3) Will it increase their sales, most likely, it is simple logic, if you are successful and gaining profit using an old toolbox, i am sure your life will be better with better tools, right ? going from screwdriver to toolbox to workshop to factory, make sense ?!
4) One fundamental thing in Pascal/Delphi is the 3rd-party, and i am feeling for them as much as i feel for Embarcadero, the more adoption of Delphi the more client for those providers, and remember those 3rd Party component provider are essential for Embarcadero and Delphi itself, notice that the selling points in Modern Delphi are
    a) FireDac came from AnyDac
    b) FireMonkey came from VGScene
(those what i can remember now), so the more they are healthy and wealthy the more the adoption, and that will reflect on everyone.

 

Another topic on side :
I own almost (literally almost) every 3rd-party component out there, most of those license are expired now, but still enjoying building with them, for example had TMS subscription that expired (since i think 2011) but i still to this moment using their scripter studio in my own private software, (on top of my list to update so i will have the 64bit), but i sent few customer for them, just to build my application in 64bit, now even if i can justify the renewal of my Delphi license, i will only do after i update my 3rd party component, because they are more essential for me than Delphi itself, this was simple one example about one product of TMS, how many real successful application built with Delphi that doesn't use 3rd-party ! or depend on them like blood to body !
i will not list all the 3rd party software out their, but i think you all got the idea and i think each and everyone of you had more or less similar experience/story.

So can this idea delivered to Embarcadero to be considered,
Please share your thought ?

 

[Darian Miller 361]

51 minutes ago, Uwe Raabe said:

• Open the ELC web interface and go to License Hosting.
• Enter your credentials and the certificate as given by Embarcadero.
• Click Host Licenses.
• Select the proper license and again click Host Licenses.
• Got to Licenses.
• Click on License Files and download the slip files (zipped).
• Extract the named license slip file.
• On each installation open License Manager and import that slip file.

 

Thanks!  It works...but doesn't show 10.4 Sydney, rather still 10.3 Rio.  Is that normal?

 

[Uwe Raabe 2057]

17 minutes ago, Darian Miller said:

but doesn't show 10.4 Sydney, rather still 10.3 Rio. 

The license text inside ELC stays the same. The list in License Manager after importing the new slip file should show 10.4 Sydney.

[Lachlan Gemmell 33]

On 5/25/2020 at 9:11 PM, dummzeuch said:

The easiest way to protect against ELC server failures, is running it in a VM and keeping a working backup of that machine. We use a XenServer VM and run ELC under a minimal Ubuntu server, so the backups aren't that large.

I've gone back to Embarcadero to resume my request to transfer my license to a Network Named User. Would you and @Uwe Raabe be willing to summarise the setup of your ELC servers and mention any gotchas you encountered please?

[Darian Miller 361]

On 5/26/2020 at 3:22 PM, Uwe Raabe said:

• Open the ELC web interface and go to License Hosting.
• Enter your credentials and the certificate as given by Embarcadero.
• Click Host Licenses.
• Select the proper license and again click Host Licenses.
• Got to Licenses.
• Click on License Files and download the slip files (zipped).
• Extract the named license slip file.
• On each installation open License Manager and import that slip file.

 

 

Is there a way to import the old versions into the ELC database?  I just started this ELC hosted license for 10.3 but I should have access to the previous versions but they aren't available in my registered downloads and they don't show up in ELC.  I can probably manually find/download the ISO in CodeCentral but the updates are in the MyRegisteredDownloads...not sure how a network license user is supposed to properly handle old versions and I've tried the official support channel twice.  

 

Thanks for any help!

 

[dummzeuch 1505]

5 hours ago, Darian Miller said:

Is there a way to import the old versions into the ELC database?

No, you will get new licenses for all included Delphi versions and in the case of the named user licenses for each user. The old licenses will continue to work for a while and then Embarcadero will invalidate them.

I also got a link for a special web page that lists downloads for all my included Delphi versions. I don't remember if I had to ask for it or got it automatically.

Unfortunately, the notification email I get when a new Delphi release is available always contained a wrong download link and I keep forgetting about the special page I mentioned above. But support was always helpful in that case.