Win32, Win64, WinRT and now... WinARM ?????

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

I can't find any topic about this new version of Windows that is creating a gap in software development.

Many people have been developing software for Windows inside Windows virtual machines into a Mac OS X. 

Since Apple launched the M1 and M2 processors, you need to install Windows ARM, which is still in a beta or less phase. 

 

The significant problem is that the software you use inside Windows ARM needs to be compiled for this Windows version.

 

I have not heard about a Delphi ARM target platform in the projects.  

 

In what am I wrong about this topic?

 

 

[Brian Evans 105]

WinRT was "Windows" on ARM without the Win32 APIs but a new set of "Universal" (UWP) APIs. It Failed.

 

The new attempt of Windows on ARM supports the same APIs as x86 and x64 builds for ARM binaries and emulation/execution of both 32 bit (with Windows 10) and 64 bit (with Windows 11) x86 binaries. It is not yet in general release. 

 

IF Microsoft sticks with this iteration of Windows for/on ARM it could be good for Delphi as VCL applications would be possible both as x86/x64 binaries and once Embarcadero supports it, ARM binaries. Unfortunately the track record is poor and some caution is likely warranted before expending significant effort as Microsoft could switch to another track. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Brian Evans

[David Heffernan 2345]

ARM has to win in the end at least for portable devices. 

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

I've tried Windows ARM, and the applications Win32/Win64 don't work on it. 

In Parallels, Matlab directly is not able to be installed.

Really, you don't install Windows ARM. You download a beta version available from the installer. 

 

In VMWare, you can't install not even the VMWare Tools. 

In this case, you download a Hard Disk with Windows ARM installed. You need to convert this disk to VMWare format, and you can then run it.

But it's worse than the parallels option. Nothing works well. You can find some software with ARM version that seems to work well. 

But the software Win32/Win64 doesn't work on this Windows version, ARM. 

 

My solution was to return my new MacBook Pro to the Apple store and recover my money.

[Der schöne Günther 316]

12 hours ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

The significant problem is that the software you use inside Windows ARM needs to be compiled for this Windows version.

Not true at all. This was the case around 10 years ago with Windows RT.

 

Yes, there is software that might not run out of the box (like apps based on OpenGL or DirectX), but for "regular users", most software runs without users even realizing it is being emulated.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Der schöne Günther

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

9 hours ago, David Heffernan said:

ARM has to win in the end at least for portable devices. 

This seems logical, but it is not a reality at this moment, nearly two years after the launching of Macs with M1 and M2 chips. 

 

I think that is a loss of sales among engineers on the side of Apple.  Maybe Microsoft is thinking that this is a good opportunity and is delaying the development of the Windows ARM. 

 

In my case, that works for Microsoft. I returned the MacBook and bought a Surface Laptop 5.   Same price, same quality, same design, but without the magic of Apple. But, when is not possible, is not possible.

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

5 minutes ago, Der schöne Günther said:

Yes, there is software that might not run out of the box (like apps based on OpenGL or DirectX), but for "regular users", most software runs without users even realizing it is being emulated.

This is a great lie by Microsoft. Not only this type of program doesn't work on Windows ARM. I've tried it and, for any type of program, if you don't find a version with the label ARM, it doesn't work on Windows ARM. 

Sometimes, with the label ARM, it doesn't work either. 

 

You can read a lot of things about Windows ARM from Microsoft and from testers of computers, etc. But I tried it for days and I have the real experience. Nothing works well on Windows ARM. Currently. 

[Lars Fosdal 1792]

@Juan C.Cilleruelo

I've run

- RAD Studio (32-bit) and Windows apps (32 and 64-bit) made with it 

- Visual Studio 17.4 (64-bit) and .NET apps made with it.

- GitKraken (Electron)

- VS Code (Electron)

under Windows 11 for ARM in Parallells on my MacBook Pro M1.

 

Windows 11 for ARM emulates x86 and x64 apps pretty darn good - there is no need to have a native ARM app.

Considering my projects compiles faster in RAD Studio under Windows 11 for ARM in Parallells under MacOS, than on my one year old Lenovo P16 i7. I am not sure what went wrong for you.

[David Heffernan 2345]

1 hour ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

magic of Apple

Price of Apple more like

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

2 hours ago, David Heffernan said:

Price of Apple more like

I don't want to enter in this stupid way. A computer of others, MSI, Asus, Dell, Lenovo or HP, with the same characteristics can double the price of the Apple. 

And it doesn't have an Office suite. You need to pay it apart every year! 

 

You save money if you steal the Operating System and the Office Licence. Or if you install Ubuntu or similar and take a for-life war with drivers, programs and configurations.  

 

In my career, I'm in the next stage: I want things to work and dedicate my time to doing things, not to solving the problems of others. 

 

In Mac, you don't need to steal anything. It's all in one forever. 

And always working. 

 

The only brand that has a product similar to Apple, after a very, very, very conscious comparison, is Microsoft. The Surface Laptop 5 with 32Gb RAM and 1Tb SSD is very similar to the Mac Book Air I first bought. With the discount, even the price was very similar. 

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

2 hours ago, Lars Fosdal said:

@Juan C.Cilleruelo

I've run

- RAD Studio (32-bit) and Windows apps (32 and 64-bit) made with it 

- Visual Studio 17.4 (64-bit) and .NET apps made with it.

- GitKraken (Electron)

- VS Code (Electron)

under Windows 11 for ARM in Parallells on my MacBook Pro M1.

 

Windows 11 for ARM emulates x86 and x64 apps pretty darn good - there is no need to have a native ARM app.

Considering my projects compiles faster in RAD Studio under Windows 11 for ARM in Parallells under MacOS, than on my one year old Lenovo P16 i7. I am not sure what went wrong for you.

 

Try this: Matlab. 

[David Heffernan 2345]

12 minutes ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

You save money if you steal the Operating System and the Office Licence.

What do Macs come with that equates to Office?

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

1 minute ago, David Heffernan said:

What do Macs come with that equates to Office?

I think you need to work with Mac for a year before making opinions of it.     

[David Heffernan 2345]

Just now, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

I think you need to work with Mac for a year before making opinions of it.     

I asked a question because I am curious. Do you know the answer?

[David Heffernan 2345]

22 minutes ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

The only brand that has a product similar to Apple, after a very, very, very conscious comparison, is Microsoft. The Surface Laptop 5 with 32Gb RAM and 1Tb SSD is very similar to the Mac Book Air I first bought. With the discount, even the price was very similar. 

I compared an XPS13 with Macbook Air 13 and the Macbook, 16GB RAM, 512Tb and the prices are £929 vs £1,649. Looking at 32/1Tb the comparison is £1,400 vs £2,000 and the Macbook only has 24Gb because there is no 32Gb option, at least where I am.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something. Is this comparison flawed?

 

Also worth noting that, unless I'm mistake, none of the Macbooks have touch screen displays. You can get a swanky touch screen on the XPS13 and still have a few hundred pounds of change compared to the price for the non touch Mac. 

 

I must be missing something.

[KodeZwerg 54]

28 minutes ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

 

Try this: Matlab. 

If the requirements of a software not fit, what do you expect to get?
At least for your Matlab you can use the online version on whatever device.

[Lars Fosdal 1792]

3 hours ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

 

Try this: Matlab. 

From what I read, the 32-bit version of Matlab has issues under W11ARM, while the 64-bit supposedly works.

IMO - making a general statement that 32-bit and 64-bit intel apps doesn't work on ARM, is a far cry away from specifying some specific apps that don't work.

 

[FPiette 383]

4 hours ago, Juan C.Cilleruelo said:

A computer of others, MSI, Asus, Dell, Lenovo or HP, with the same characteristics can double the price of the Apple. 

I don't know for Lenovo, Dell or HP, but for assembled desktop PC on demand, here in my country, the price here is much less than equivalent Apple computer.

[David Heffernan 2345]

1 hour ago, Lars Fosdal said:

From what I read, the 32-bit version of Matlab has issues under W11ARM, while the 64-bit supposedly works.

IMO - making a general statement that 32-bit and 64-bit intel apps doesn't work on ARM, is a far cry away from specifying some specific apps that don't work.

 

32 bit version of MATLAB hasn't existed for at least 5 years

[Anders Melander 1783]

5 hours ago, David Heffernan said:

You can get a swanky touch screen on the XPS13

Yikes.

Nobody touches my screen! Not even myself.

 

Besides touch screens add cost and complexity.

[David Heffernan 2345]

22 minutes ago, Anders Melander said:

Yikes.

Nobody touches my screen! Not even myself.

 

Besides touch screens add cost and complexity.

I'm not a big screen toucher either

[Juan C.Cilleruelo 12]

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-launches-arm-advisory-service-to-help-developers-make-windows-arm-based-apps/

Microsoft has just launched a new and free program for Windows developers who need assistance in adapting their Windows apps to run on Arm processor-based PCs. The program is called the Arm Advisory Service.