Delphi on Surface Pro with Qualcomm CPU?

[PeterPanettone 157]

Did anyone already run the Delphi IDE on the brand new Microsoft Surface Pro ("CoPilot+PC") with Qualcomm Snapdragon ARM CPU + Integrated Neural Processing Unit ("NPU")?

 

Apparently, the Copilot AI could optionally watch my programming in the IDE and give me real-time suggestions and error corrections about the code I am writing (or optionally write the code for me according to my specifications)!

Edited May 22 by PeterPanettone

[FPiette 381]

According to Microsoft, most Win32/Win64 applications runs on the Surface Pro having an ARM processor. Of course there is an emulation layer to run Intel machine code on an ARM processor and there is probably a performance penalty.

 

Tom's Guide reviewed two Surface Pro 9 : one with Intel i7-1255U and one with ARM SQ3. Intel configuration is largely superior to ARM configuration. There is only one area where ARM is better: battery life. This was expected given the lower performance of the ARM processor.

 

If you plan to buy Surface Pro 9, pay attention to various configurations there are not at all equals!

[PeterPanettone 157]

56 minutes ago, FPiette said:

Tom's Guide reviewed two Surface Pro 9

The current Surface Pro ("CoPilot + PC") is not related to the Surface Pro 9. That review is from 2022. That's why I asked if someone has tried it out.

Edited May 22 by PeterPanettone

[Jim McKeeth 104]

The new Surface devices aren't shipping yet. I read there is a new emulation layer that is supposed to be faster, and frankly the last version was pretty good, so I'm optimistic. Will be nice to get an updated IDE and compiler though.

[PeterPanettone 157]

21 hours ago, Jim McKeeth said:

I read there is a new emulation layer that is supposed to be faster, and frankly the last version was pretty good, so I'm optimistic. Will be nice to get an updated IDE and compiler though.

This is good news!

 

Pipe dream: Imagine CoPilot watching my work in the IDE in real-time and giving me intelligent advice based on my preset specifications:

 

"Hey user, your current implementation of the XY algorithm is 75% inefficient. Try this one ..."

 

Or: "Hey, user, I've compiled your code and run your app while you were away drinking coffee. I've found this bottleneck: ... I suggest this change in your code: ... BTW, you should stop drinking too much coffee! Try this new low-coffeine organic brand: ..."

 

Or: "Hey, developer, this icon looks ugly and could lead to semantic confusion among users. I've created a better one - try it out: ..."

 

Or: "Hey, dev, I have registered your app in the Microsoft Store as you requested. Sign here to finalize the registration."

 

Or: "Hey D, your app sales are up 217% this month. Should I invest in Microsoft stock like I suggested?"

 

Did an AI dream come through?

Edited May 23 by PeterPanettone

[Rollo62 536]

Not sure if you are talking about this item with SnapDragon?
https://www.microsoft.com/de-de/surface/devices/surface-pro-11th-edition?ef_id=_k_Cj0KCQjw0ruyBhDuARIsANSZ3wpQRZ2cSDuit-TypUqepPgIc4AE_aMrLZmReQw0Ai2OuQqK-QZQObwaAuOoEALw_wcB_k_&OCID=AIDcmmkg9d0avi_SEM__k_Cj0KCQjw0ruyBhDuARIsANSZ3wpQRZ2cSDuit-TypUqepPgIc4AE_aMrLZmReQw0Ai2OuQqK-QZQObwaAuOoEALw_wcB_k_&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0ruyBhDuARIsANSZ3wpQRZ2cSDuit-TypUqepPgIc4AE_aMrLZmReQw0Ai2OuQqK-QZQObwaAuOoEALw_wcB#sup3

 

Which seems officially listed for pre-order on the Microsoft site, perhaps not shipping yet, but at least quite a bit "official".

Not sure if these "preorder" prices have large rebates.

 

 

 

Edited May 23 by Rollo62

[PeterPanettone 157]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:26 PM, Jim McKeeth said:

the last version was pretty good

How did the Delphi IDE run on the last version? Is there any chance of getting an ARM-compiled IDE, as ARM might be the future?

[Lajos Juhász 293]

11 minutes ago, PeterPanettone said:

Is there any chance of getting an ARM-compiled IDE, as ARM might be the future?

 

For years it is a low priority research target to Embarcadero to replace the IDE. There is no further public information on this topic.

[Tommi Prami 130]

On 5/22/2024 at 3:38 PM, PeterPanettone said:

Did anyone already run the Delphi IDE on the brand new Microsoft Surface Pro ("CoPilot+PC") with Qualcomm Snapdragon ARM CPU + Integrated Neural Processing Unit ("NPU")?

I went to the roadshow and was left into understanding that those come out after summer.

So most likely no one has tested that, if has, most likely is not allowed to talk much about it.

 

-Tee-

[Lars Fosdal 1791]

Considering that Delphi runs fine under Windows for ARM in Parallells on MacOS, it is likely that it will run well on Windows for ARM without a VM layer as well.

[PeterPanettone 157]

1 hour ago, Lars Fosdal said:

Considering that Delphi runs fine under Windows for ARM in Parallells on MacOS, it is likely that it will run well on Windows for ARM without a VM layer as well.

ARM is not the same as Parallels on Mac. I am running Delphi 12.1 in Parallels (in Coherence mode) on a 2019 Intel MacBook Pro.

[msohn 28]

16 minutes ago, PeterPanettone said:

ARM is not the same as Parallels on Mac.

On a Mac with Apple Silicon, i.e. M1 or higher, it is.

 

That also means, once you switch to a newer Apple Silicon Mac, you have to recreate all your Intel-based VMs.

Edited May 24 by msohn

[PeterPanettone 157]

3 hours ago, msohn said:

once you switch to a newer Apple Silicon Mac, you have to recreate all your Intel-based VMs.

I am sure this step can be automated.

[Lars Fosdal 1791]

1 minute ago, PeterPanettone said:

I am sure this step can be automated.

I am sure I would prefer a clean installation.

[PeterPanettone 157]

1 minute ago, Lars Fosdal said:

I am sure I would prefer a clean installation.

The installation would consist of two steps:

1. Clean installation of a new VM on Silicon

2. Transfer of data from the old VM on Intel to the new VM on Silicon

[msohn 28]

1 minute ago, PeterPanettone said:

2. Transfer of data from the old VM on Intel to the new VM on Silicon

For that reason, I use a separate disk for all code-related things, so it can be moved or copied into a new VM.

 

But that still doesn't spare you from installing IDE(s) and most importantly 3rd party Tools incl. GetIt packages. Automating that kind of thing is definitely non-trivial.

 

Now imagine you'd have to that for several VMs with different IDE generations - with a personal license that will make you end up writing with Emba support daily because your installation limits have been reached again and again.

[PeterPanettone 157]

2 hours ago, msohn said:

Now imagine you'd have to that for several VMs with different IDE generations

Fortunately, I am not a freak who collects IDEs like other people collect stamps. 😉 I just use the 12.1 version for my current development needs.

[Stefan Glienke 2002]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:26 PM, Jim McKeeth said:

The new Surface devices aren't shipping yet. I read there is a new emulation layer that is supposed to be faster, and frankly the last version was pretty good, so I'm optimistic. Will be nice to get an updated IDE and compiler though.

Given the current issues regarding optimization that all LLVM-based Delphi compilers (that is all but the two Windows ones) have I am tempted to say that an x86 or x64 binary using the emulation layer might be faster than what a compiler that directly targets ARM would produce today.

 

There are multiple reports about this and it boils down to "need to migrate to a newer LLVM version" which we have been told for years now - since recently the C++ Builder side was migrated to a recent LLVM version I hope that now the Delphi side gets addressed.

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-9922

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17724

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-25754

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-28006

Edited May 24 by Stefan Glienke

[PeterPanettone 157]

On 5/24/2024 at 5:14 PM, Stefan Glienke said:

I am tempted to say that an x86 or x64 binary using the emulation layer might be faster than what a compiler that directly targets ARM would produce today.

That is good news.

[FPiette 381]

On 5/24/2024 at 5:14 PM, Stefan Glienke said:

I am tempted to say that an x86 or x64 binary using the emulation layer might be faster than what a compiler that directly targets ARM would produce today.

OK, you are tempted. But IMO that is a non-sense.

[Stefan Glienke 2002]

8 hours ago, FPiette said:

OK, you are tempted. But IMO that is a non-sense.

You might have misunderstood my sentence because obviously I was referring to any Delphi compiler that might target ARM - have you looked into the JIRA reports I linked?