Running the IDE in a VM on Mac Book Pro?

[John Kouraklis 94]

52 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

Macos is really behind Windows IMHO in so many ways (sorry only my opinion as a long trained Windows user).

 

Would be interested to hear your reasoning. I left Apple a while ago and I think their OS is very simplistic to match the tech needs and when things go wrong (because it is unix based system) it is hard to get help.

 

On a positive note, integration between devices is a smooth as it gets for obvious reasons 

[PeterPanettone 157]

45 minutes ago, Sherlock said:

You should consider using external SSDs via USB3 to compensate for small built in drives.

Running VMs with Windows 10 from an external SSD over a USB cable? Are you sure this would work?

[Rollo62 536]

Yes, simplistic is the main reason.
There are simple things hidden too much and settings are very limited (no expert modes).

With Windows I can do anything, its very open and informative.
I can get a tool for any topic.

Ok, probably you can find that for Mac too somewhere, and you have the Terminal shell.
At some steps you HAVE to use Temrinal, to get simple things done (where I would expect a clever installer maybe).

Devices are integrated smoothly: YES

But there are so little devices available. I cannot even get a USB-C cable in a shop now.
Most keyboards, USB-Drived, other adapters do not work out of the box with Macos.
They really are not interested in 3rd party support, where Windows is vice-versa.

Why the hell do I have Thunderbolt, there are no reasonable or affordable devices available, its a total waste.

 

Also the whole concept of UX, some love it and say its easy, but I think vice-versa again.
Hidden windows behind other apps, a lot of flaws which I rarely see in Windows.

Windows concepts are much more simple user-friendly and clear IMHO (unfortunately Win10 is on the track of Macos right now).
Try to move a file with Finder, this is terrible, there is no clear Cut and past function for files, as far as I know.

Try to drop a file in a folder, you never know where it lands.

 

Macos still might have Wifi issues, sometimes broken connections, etc. A well known issues for many years now, probably
depend on the router and the settings, but nothing I would like to see in such a machine.

 

One the Pro side:

Trackpad is great, 2-finger / 3-finger guestures work smooth, elegant and flawlessly, never seen such perfect bahaviour on Windows.

Switching shells by swiping them is a joy to work with multiple VM machines.

Display is great.

 

 

Anyway, for me the Mac acts as host, and I'm running on Windows.

For that purpose its OK for me.

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PeterPanettone said:

Running VMs with Windows 10 from an external SSD over a USB cable? Are you sure this would work?

Why not? SATA has 6GBit/s bandwidth and USB 3 has 5 Gbit/s up to 10 Gbit/s

[Rollo62 536]

6 minutes ago, PeterPanettone said:

Running VMs with Windows 10 from an external SSD over a USB cable? Are you sure this would work?

I only can say:

VmWare with image on an external FAST SDD (Samsung 'T5 e.g.) works nearly as fast like on internal SSD.

[PeterPanettone 157]

6 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

VmWare with image on an external FAST SDD (Samsung 'T5 e.g.) works nearly as fast like on internal SSD.

I suppose external SSDs are attached via Thunderbolt cables on a Mac Book Pro?

And isn't Parallels better integrated into Mac OS than VM Ware Workstation?

[PeterPanettone 157]

48 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

VmWare with image on an external FAST SDD (Samsung 'T5 e.g.) works nearly as fast like on internal SSD.

Can the same VMWare images on an external SSD be used BOTH from VMWare Workstation on a Mac and from VMWare Workstation on a Windows PC (of course not simultaneously)? That possibility would be a huge advantage over using Parallels.

[Rollo62 536]

@PeterPanettone

No, its connected via USB3.

The cost-benefit relation of Thunderbird is simply unreasonable.

 

I never checked out Parallels, but checked many forums and case.stories some years ago, comparing Parallels to VmWare.
Parallels is very good for Macos, indeed.
But at that time (and up to now) Parallels and VmWare were on par, no big differences in all tests (as far as I know).
So my choice was VmWare then, since I already used it for Windows and felt very convenient, it was a no-brainer.
I never regret my choice.
 

The images are usable on both platforms, yes.
I've made such tests some years ago, and it was possible to move them around, but I would not bet on this.
Also you have to consider CPU and hardware, which probably doesn'T match the new host.
For example the Macos image requires special "Apple compatibe" CPU (which means no AMD at all), this can break your compatibility,

but that not an VmWare issue.
Today I prefer to work on clean VM's, which are pre-configured with my minimum set of tools, and to set up a new
VM guest is like copy and paste (by the way copying 40GB copying on a fast SSD can be < 1 min, ony my older systems might take 10-15min).

 

 

[John Kouraklis 94]

7 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

Also you have to consider CPU and hardware, which probably doesn'T match the new host.
For example the Macos image requires special "Apple compatibe" CPU (which means no AMD at all), this can break your compatibility,

but that not an VmWare issue.

There's a patch for this. See here: https://www.cybernog.com/2018/10/MacOS-Mojave-VMware.html

7 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

VM guest is like copy and paste (by the way copying 40GB copying on a fast SSD can be < 1 min, ony my older systems might take 10-15min).

40GB? This must be a VM with the OS only. My VMs easily reach 250GBs

[John Kouraklis 94]

One thing that mac OS does very well (not pefectly) is scaling between 4K and non-4K monitors.

 

Windows gets very confused even with MS apps like word and powerpoint

 

No idea how Linux behaves

Edited August 22, 2019 by John Kouraklis

[Rollo62 536]

12 hours ago, John Kouraklis said:

There's a patch for this. See here: https://www.cybernog.com/2018/10/MacOS-Mojave-VMware.html

40GB? This must be a VM with the OS only. My VMs easily reach 250GBs

Yes, 40 GB is clean Win10 VM.
I had up to 130GB VM in the past as well, but then tried to keep it cleaned up as much as possible.
Currently the last years I could reach <= 70 GB (of coarse including also my desired tools like Git. Excel, Gimp, IncSkape, etc.),

The larger VM is not really a problem for working, but takes a little longer at start, copy and more space in backup.
Thats why I recommend to regularily clean up "C:\" folder (incl. system files), and then clan the VM, shrinking it back.

Unfortunately clean and shrink VM doesn't work with Macos images out of the box.
Also shrinking disk space doesn't really work well in Macos.
It is possible, but needs a lot of fumbling in Terminal and disk utility, so I keep it as is.
This is a problem because upgrading needs to enlarge the VM temporarily (like I think last XCode was 15GB),

then after install its back to normal.

Unfortunately I cannot temporarily give more space and free then.

If I need to update I try to clean as much as possible, but last update I needed to increase my VM size as well.

But anyway, working from clean VM's is always the option.

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Rollo62

[sLesage 0]

So ... my 2 cents ... 

 

I've been using Macs since forever and have been using the MacBook Pro as my main laptop for almost 12 years now. I use OSX for everything except of course when working on Delphi projects, then I have a VM especially for that specific customer / project. Yes ... a separate VM for specific clients / projects since some clients / projects use certain (versions of) components which are different to the ones used by another client / project. I only use the VM for Delphi ... mails, surfing, ... is done on the OSX side, so risk for virus infections is ... well ... very small.

 

With regards to price of the products ... well ... they are comparable to similar configurations / build types and yes ... maybe a bit more expensive. But don't believe the people who tell you they are 6000 euro and you have to buy a new one after 3 years, that is just not true. My latest MacBook Pro costed me about 3000 euro, and it's still running nicely and fine after about 5 years, the MacPro I have at home is now about 7 years old and still perfectly fine. The average lifespan of my Macs is around 4 to 6 years after which I just replace them with the latest and greatest, safe and secure system.

 

Yes the initial price is a bit higher than a similar build / spec PC version and a lot higher than a similar spec / plastic build PC, but over the run of the 4 to 6 years I would argue they might even be a bit cheaper.

 

And yes ... the build quality is there. One day I had put my MacBook Pro in my backpack and left the office. Outside I swung my backback on my back only to hear something drop out of it and fall on the concrete floor (even sliding a meter or two). Yes ... I had forgotten to close the zipper. Luckily ... full Aluminium body and SDD saved the machine. I'm still using it 3 years later wihtout any problems. Don't think the cheapo plastic versions would have survived this.

[David Schwartz 426]

Ok, Mac vs. PC.... I don't understand why people think Apple's are "too expensive". If you had a car that broke down as often as PCs do but it was 1/3 the cost of one that NEVER breaks down, but the TCO of the cheaper one exceeded the TCO of the more expensive one, you think you're saving money??? Maybe it can't start every 3rd say, or it locks up while updating itself and doesn't give you an option. What if you were on your way to a big meeting and it locked up? Just stopped in the middle of the road for 15 minutes while it updated its firmware? You'd say, "oh, but it was so much cheaper than the ones that DON'T lock up or need to be fixed regularly!"

 

TCO. You need to look at TCO, not just what you paid for it originally.

 

The hardware is functionally equivalent for most intents and purposes between the two. But everybody knows a new Mac will cost 2x-3x what an equivalent PC will cost.

 

Over their lifetime, the Mac will give you fewer problems and cost you less after factoring in the wasted time and expenses that PCs incur.

 

Anyway, I don't buy Mac hardware NEW. I get it either from the Apple Refurbished Store, or on eBay. 

 

I don't worry about the price differential for a couple of reasons: (1) Apple HW holds its value over time, PCs don't; (2) with one exception, the Apple HW I've had has outlasted every PC I've ever had. The exception was an original 24" iMac with Intel CPU from 2005ish -- it's graphics card died not long after the AppleCare expired and they wanted more to replace it than the unit was worth. I was able to sell it without HDD and RAM for nearly $400 anyway. Their LCD panels (removed from the case) were selling used on eBay for nearly $300 all by themselves!

 

In 2013 or so, I got a fully-loaded 2012 MBP at the refurb store for $2600 ($3300 MSRP), used it daily, and sold it 2 years later for $2300. You could say it cost me $300 for 2 years of use! How is that "more expensive" than a similar PC that would have cost me closer to $1000 over the same time period because it lost its value so fast?

 

After that, I picked up a 2014 MBP that was a little beefier for $2400. I've still got it today, and I could sell it on eBay for $1200-$1400. That's like $200/yr. (I got the battery replaced earlier in the year for $179. That's all it has cost me since I got it, other than AppleCare, which I never needed to use.)

 

Every PC laptop I've owned has had batteries die within 18 months. The only problem I've had with my MBP was earlier this year -- the battery started bloating up, and as I said, it cost me $179 to get it replaced. They actually removed the logic board and display from my laptop and swapped-in an entire bottom half. So it's "half-new". 🙂 I could probably get my $179 back with a higher selling price selling on eBay!

 

I've never seen a PC that didn't lose 70% of it's value in 2 years. When I need one, I only buy them from Best Buy, and I get the ones that customers return after big holiday sales that are marked down another 25%.

 

As for the software -- MacOS vs. Windows -- I'm fed up with Microsoft's attitude that they've turned Windows into a "subscription-driven" model. I'll open up a laptop and it will start installing who-knows-what. It starts without asking me, locks me out of the machine for 5-30 minutes, and usually resets things that take me days to fix. 

 

Also, you pretty much need to run some kind of anti-virus on PCs, and I regularly deal with Windows popping-up asking about this or that threat. This isn't needed on Macs, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I do my personal Delphi development inside of a VM on my Mac -- either my MBP or a Mac Mini. I don't run AV or anything in the VM, and it runs faster than on any Windows laptop I've had.

 

PCs w/Windows are cheaper out the door, but over time they depreciate to the point of being worthless in 18-24 months, and they waste a HUGE amount of time. They also seem to need batteries replaced pretty regularly.

 

Macs are cheaper in the long-run, mostly because they do NOT depreciate the way PCs do, and I've had very few problems with them.

 

But I'm aware there are people in the world who buy one car after another and every one is a lemon, just like there are people who buy anything from Apple, say, and they think they're lemons as well. I can't help that. 

 

I don't think dying batteries in PCs means they're lemons, but the fact that they lose their value so damn quickly is a good indicator that they're Really Poor Investments.

 

But as they say, YMMV.

 

I regard Macs as simply a far better investment than PCs. And since I can use either one to do whatever I need, I prefer to buy the one with lower TCO.

 

I know some folks claim that's some kind of "blind religion", but I guess they'd also call Warren Buffett a religious zealot because this is how he buys things as well.

[Mike Torrettinni 198]

46 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

I've never seen a PC that didn't lose 70% of it's value in 2 years.

47 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

Macs are cheaper in the long-run, mostly because they do NOT depreciate the way PCs do

46 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

Anyway, I don't buy Mac hardware NEW. I get it either from the Apple Refurbished Store, or on eBay. 

 

This is interesting, I've never heard this argument, and I think you are on to something. I never thought that developers are reselling their PCs/MACs - except for gaming community. I also never heard that software developers buy refurbished computers. I always buy new computer when it's time, every few years (2-6, based on budget, needs, etc...), and any other software developer I know. The old one is usually given away.

 

So, if there is a big community of developers that have same experience as you, I'm completely oblivious to it 🙂

 

 

 

[David Schwartz 426]

I don't know why people sell their computers, they don't say if they're developes or not.

 

But depending on the time of year and other tidbits of stuff, it's obvious that there are lots of college students who sell their nearly-new laptops for whatever reasons they might have. I don't care what their reason is, but MBPs consistently fetch considerably higher prices vs. stuff you can buy at Costco and BestBuy at deep discounts. Why buy a used PC when you can get a new one for not that much more that has a full warranty? It's just not worth the risk IMHO.

 

A year-old MBP might go for $2000 while a similarly configured Dell or HP might cost $400.

 

The biggest cost factor in MBPs is their SSD. You can get a 256GB or 512GB model and upgrade it to 1TB or 2TB way cheaper than buying one preconfigured that way. 

PCs are 100% commodity-based pricing except for the latest-and-greatest CPUs, RAM, and SSD.

[Bill Meyer 337]

"Never" breaks down? Arguments are never won with hyperbole. Yes, there are people who claim Macs don't break down, but in my experience, those claims are pure fantasy, and will bear no scrutiny.

 

As to laptops, I know of nothing which loses value more rapidly, regardless of brand. The investment value of a computer is a function of what you are able to do with it that earns value. Computers in general rabidly lose value, and lap[tops are the aggravated case of the class.

[David Schwartz 426]

I'm just stating my experience; I guess you're free to call it whatever you want. As I said, YMMV. 

 

Also, it seems you don't track resale prices of Apple products as closely as I do, so of course you're going to think whatever I'm saying is dubious.

 

This is why there are people in the world on both sides of the climate issue. The unquestionable fact is ... the average level of CO2 in the air has been steadily rising for decades. The debate is ... so what? The only thing most people will react to is when living beings start dying off of hypoxia due to too much CO2 and not enough O2 in the air. But the plants and animals will have died off long before that, so I guess we'll never really know until it's far too late.

 

[sLesage 0]

9 hours ago, Bill Meyer said:

"Never" breaks down? Arguments are never won with hyperbole. Yes, there are people who claim Macs don't break down, but in my experience, those claims are pure fantasy, and will bear no scrutiny.

I will never say never ... but in the 15 years I've switched to Mac I've never had any big problems at all, not once ... I did however have a key pop loose from an external keybaord but that was only on me to blame. For me ... in the long run Mac's are cheaper than PC's. Yes my trashcan MacPro costed a fortune ... but that was in 2012 and it's still running perfectly fine. So over the period of 7 years it wasn't even all that expensive. If the 'gaming setup i9 9900' machine I've build lasts for 3 years I'd be more than happy, but I'm almost sure that within 2 years I'll have made some changes to the build.

[Rollo62 536]

11 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

The biggest cost factor in MBPs is their SSD. You can get a 256GB or 512GB model and upgrade it to 1TB or 2TB way cheaper than buying one preconfigured that way. 

 

Interesting, how do you upgrade MBP ?
I never checked that more deeply, as I expected that only original Apple parts might run perfectly (but at same incredible price).
Do you mean that any Apple-Repair shop might be able to upgrade SSD with state-of-the-art technology and size ?
 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Rollo62

[John Kouraklis 94]

@David Schwartz Nothing to do with religious wars. Noone said that Apple doesn't make good product.

19 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

Ok, Mac vs. PC.... I don't understand why people think Apple's are "too expensive". If you had a car that broke down as often as PCs do but it was 1/3 the cost of one that NEVER breaks down,

...until it does...and then you see what happens to the TCO when you visit Apple Store or spend hours in some forums trying to figure out which terminal command you should execute cause one 10 people in the world know about it

 

You have, also, found a unique approach to all this. Interesting but unique---you are talking about second hand machines. 

 

I don't think the argument that Apple's machines are more resistant to price drops is valid any more. In '90s and '00s perhaps but now, as Apple, becomes more popular the prices of used machines drop faster. Just search ebay and, also, keep in mind that what you see is now what your machine will get.

 

But I agree that the update policies on Windows are just annoying...

 

You may see this as a Warrent Baffet investment and a smart move, but there's a small catch here. It is a better investment as long as you are able and happy to afford the initial high investment on something that depreciates rapidly like a laptop.

 

So, investment-wise, the TCO is not only about monies but, also, about good use of funds and the opportunity cost; that is what do you miss and do not do because you had to reserve funds to buy a laptop that represents a highly depreciable asset  

 

[David Schwartz 426]

2 hours ago, John Kouraklis said:

You have, also, found a unique approach to all this. Interesting but unique---you are talking about second hand machines.

Uhhh ... no, it's far from unique. Just something I guess you've never considered.

 

Look, Apple has a discount program at most colleges, and many schools are REQUIRING students to have a laptop. So when the inevitable 15% or so of students drop-out every semester, a lot of them decide to sell their nearly-new equipment, usually at a pretty decent discount because they don't know much about that stuff. Many of them are like a friend I've got who has a saying: "A fast nickel is better than a slow dime" and they're hurting for cash, so they post their stuff up on eBay at ridiculous discounts. If you're quick, you can score some AMAZING deals!

 

For example, my sister wanted a 12.9" iPad Pro and asked me to see what I could find for her. I scoped out eBay and found one that the owner said was 6 months old, barely used, with AppleCare. The description was quite vague, and when I asked her to clarify something, she just wasn't sure. The price was $475, which was a pretty good deal for a 32GB WiFi-only device with nothing else. I've seen similar things with cracked screens sell for this much, and I was surprised that it hadn't been snatched up in over 24 hours. When it arrived, I freaked-out! It came with a $150 case, 128GB of memory, an Apple Pencil, original boxes, and had cellular service built-in. I could have flipped it that day for $750! My sister said she wanted a WiFi only device, and I said I'd be happy to trade it for mine (the specs she asked for) but she decided to think it over. The next day she told me her partner saw it and immediately took it over to the Verizon store and activated it on their account. They LOVE it! (I should have opened the box and looked at it BEFORE I saw my sister and just given her mine instead; she'd have been quite satisfied.)

 

That may seem like a fluke, but there are plenty of folks who simply don't know what they've got, and a LOT of them own Apple equipment -- because they DON'T HAVE TO KNOW! 

 

My brother has three kids, one has been in and out of college for 7 years; one just graduated last year; and one is about to go into college. He called me in total frustration 2-1/2 years ago and said his oldest daughter just had her HP laptop die for the umpteenth time and he just can't afford to keep replacing the damn things. He asked what I'd suggest, and I told him the same thing I've said numerous times in the past: get her a used MacBook! Of course he hemmed and hawed and kept saying how he can't afford it, and I just said again, "Well that's what I'm going to tell you every time you ask."

 

I'm not sure exactly what happened after that, but somehow one of them came across a 6-mo old MBP from another student and picked it up at about 25% discount off of list price. It had AppleCare. I've asked several times how it's holding up, and at first my brother was hesitant ... "so far so good, but if the damn thing breaks, I'm going to be really pissed."  Here we are 2-1/2 years later and guess what? The other HP and Dell his other two kids had both broke AGAIN, and they didn't honor their warranty deals for obscure reasons. But that MBP has only had a couple of minor problems: something on the kbd broke and he had some other weird problem with the OS, and both times they took it to the Apple Store and they fixed things right up. He was so amazed that he told me he will never buy another PC again, only Apple hardware.

 

I've heard this same story over and over and over from so many people.... like a manager at a place I was working said he had been a loyal Dell users for years, but his kids kept breaking them, and they seemed to be breaking with increasing frequency. One Monday he said he was fed up and went to the Apple Store and bought 5 (yes, 5) brand new MBPs for his family, and said as soon as they can get switched off of their Dells, he was going to donate the Dells to some charity.

 

My brother is the kind of guy who NEVER buys anything NEW. So he actually enjoys hunting down good deals on used Macs! Kinda weird, I know. But they're not that hard to come by if you know where to look.

 

My first iMac I bought new at a Thanksgiving sale at Best Buy and it was discounted by several hundred dollars. I've never bought a new Mac since, although I do buy new iPads from T-Mobile (my cell phone carrier) b/c I can get 24 months same-as-cash with no credit app from them.

 

My fist MBP I got with a Apple-branded BarclayCard that gave me 5% cashback for purchases made through Apple with 24 months same-as-cash payments, and I bought it from their refurb store at a 15% discount.

 

You just have to know how to find good deals on this stuff I guess.

Edited August 26, 2019 by David Schwartz

[David Schwartz 426]

2 hours ago, Rollo62 said:

Interesting, how do you upgrade MBP ?

very carefully. They're getting harder and harder to upgrade. The thinner the cases get, the more stuff is soldered in place. The newest ones are not upgradeable from what I'm told.

 

Do some research ... look for SSDs on eBay specifically for MacBook Pros and you can learn a lot from the vendors who sell them. 

 

I have a mid-2014 MBP and these devices can have their RAM and SSD upgraded simply by removing the bottom, but you need special tools. 

The problem is, some machines can't be upgraded past a certain point. Mine came with 1TB of SSD, but I can't upgrade it to 2TB, although some mid-2014 models can. I also can't expand my RAM past 16GB.

 

There are vendors who sell upgraded equipment on eBay. I bought a Late 2014 Mac Mini that was upgraded to 2TB of SSD and 16GB of RAM for $1100. I thought it was the same as my MBP, but it turns out the i7 chip is only a dual-core not quad-core. Apple didn't put quad-core i7's in Mac Minis until the newer generation they announced last fall. A new Mac Mini similarly configured but with a 3.2GHz 8-core i7 is about $2300.

Edited August 26, 2019 by David Schwartz

[Rollo62 536]

Ok, so you do by yourself, you're a very brave man
I would prefer to search for some experts repair shops, offering this service, since my nerves lay a little open recently (since I started mobile development).
I don't do hardware repair on a daily bases, so I wouldn't trust myself to get everything right after so many years loosing experience.