When will we have a 64-bit IDE version ?

[Vincent Parrett 750]

I'm sure we would all love to see a 64bit IDE, but emb have limited resources, and right now they need to focus on more important issues.

[Vincent Parrett 750]

5 hours ago, David Heffernan said:

This seems extremely optimistic

Well that's a first 😅

[Dalija Prasnikar 1396]

14 hours ago, luciano_f said:

As I already mentioned, there is no reason not to have a 64-bit IDE since the whole world is moving towards this, let's get to the Facts

Lazarus 64 Bit
Visual Studio 64 Bit

Android 64 Bit only
MacOs 64 Bit only

The whole world does it is not much of an argument. 

 

Anyway, Android Studio is a Java application and it is rather memory hungry. Just starting it will gobble up 500MB of memory. Opening very small project will raise that to 1.5 GB. Comparing to Delphi which uses 116 when started and about 400MB when you open small project (similar to one in AS). So Delphi with opened project consumes less memory than AS without any. When you build that small project in AS it will go over 3 GB like it is nothing. Of course it only comes in 64-bit variant.

 

macOS OS has been only 64-bit for over a decade. They have been pushing all applications to 64-bit from the very start and since 2019 macOS no longer supports running 32-bit applications. It is wonder they lasted that long as Apple is not much concerned with backward compatibility and the ability that their customers can run something or not. Or whether they will be forced to buy new hardware. Actually everything Apple does is to force people to buy new hardware. 

 

Visual Studio got 64-bit version less than 2 years ago. If the MS with all their resources haven't done that before nor though it was absolutely necessary, then certainly there is no reason why Embarcadero would have to jump into 64-bit immediately.

 

I am not going to comment Lazarus, as I don't know to much about it.

 

Quote

Who knows, maybe the day Microsoft says it will end support for Win32 will see Embarcadero in shame.

I seriously doubt MS would do that. Maybe when they switch to 128bit Windows.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Dalija Prasnikar

[Sherlock 663]

14 hours ago, luciano_f said:

As I already mentioned, there is no reason not to have a 64-bit IDE since the whole world is moving towards this, let's get to the Facts

Lazarus 64 Bit
Visual Studio 64 Bit

Android 64 Bit only
MacOs 64 Bit only

Who knows, maybe the day Microsoft says it will end support for Win32 will see Embarcadero in shame.

Well, the main reason on the Embarcadero side would be that the IDE in its current state is not generated from on single codebase in one single language, but is a patchwork of more or less pretty quilts assembled to look like a single piece of software. Some of those patchy things have not been touched in quite some time (this is just a guess on my part, but it is an educated one). Lazarus on the other hand is dogfooding at its best.

[David Heffernan 2345]

14 minutes ago, Sherlock said:

Lazarus on the other hand is dogfooding at its best

Is the debugging experience still terrible though? 

[Sherlock 663]

Lets say...sub par 😄

[Anders Melander 1783]

3 hours ago, David Heffernan said:

Is the debugging experience still terrible though?

That's not the worst; Installing a component still requires recompiling the IDE. That probably makes sense on Linux, but it makes zero sense on Windows.

Also, the LCL and RTL aren't really up to par with Delphi.

[Brian Evans 105]

18 hours ago, luciano_f said:

Who knows, maybe the day Microsoft says it will end support for Win32 will see Embarcadero in shame.

Application developers still using Delphi 1, which used Win16, will need to migrate to a newer Delphi version in the next two years if they want their applications to still run on a Home/Pro supported release of Windows. That release is Windows 10 32bit 22H2 which ends support on Oct 14, 2025. If on a Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC release that could be longer - LTSC 2019 has support until 2029. 

 

I think Win32 32bit applications are safe for another couple of decades.  

[luciano_f 5]

1 hour ago, Anders Melander said:

That's not the worst; Installing a component still requires recompiling the IDE. That probably makes sense on Linux, but it makes zero sense on Windows.

Also, the LCL and RTL aren't really up to par with Delphi.

Could you elaborate further on why LCL and RTL are not up to par with Delphi ?

[Pat Foley 51]

6 hours ago, Dalija Prasnikar said:

The whole world does it is not much of an argument. 

Just because a large number of people do something (Windows/MSDOS), does not make it right (MAC OS crew view).  Legacy support is lost in the Mac world a publishing program upgraded to the new flavor of Mac would happily wreck any book at page 65 or so. 

 

Android Studio needs to run on Linux for good connection to google when it's working your phone over. It does have a Web app option now. 

 

Visual Studio issues warning do not set root to internet on Linux. plus learning javascript. Boo!

 

Lazarus I been unable to load on Linux for one, plus it's just a bunch of windows like D1-7.  

   

 

[DelphiUdIT 176]

1 hour ago, luciano_f said:

Could you elaborate further on why LCL and RTL are not up to par with Delphi ?

RTTI is an experimental stage. Lacks some generics support also.

Anonymous methods and function reference are still not supported (may be in the next stable release will be), there are no styles or themes in the LCL, and since they are used to be compatible with a lot of OS they don't "use" some functions for current OS (for example, they lack full support for drag and drop operations). Not all Windows Messages are supported ...

 

 

In the standard distribution there are not many components and most of the components are third party and must be installed (there is an online repository also accessible from the IDE).
When the version changes it very often happens that support for old components is not available, and since many components have links to each other this blocks several components.
Support (via forum) is active and is normally quite fast.

Every time you install a component you need to recompile the IDE,

There is no company behind Lazarus and FPC and therefore what guarantee can there be regarding a product that must generate production software?

 

These are only some questions about ....

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by DelphiUdIT

[FabDev 8]

Of course 64 bits is a need !

 

Each time my Delphi IDE crash process monitor display more than 2.5  Gb used.

 

 My project (25 years) contains more than 7 million lines of code with more than 40 libraries of third-party components, it contains more than 600 forms. And do not say that it is too old because I change version to Delphi version (from 2 to 11.3) and I delete the old libraries (For Example BDE -> IBX -> IBDAC). I use ribbon like Winword 2021 and my latest DevExpress WXI skin and look and feel. Yes of course, some forms contain a lot of components, but in execution there is no problem with the 32-bit version, it's only in Design time.

And what happens when more than 100 forms are opened at the same time or after intensive code completion using or pressing F1 (for help) > out of memory.  This can happens  after 30 minutes or sometimes 2 hours of coding.  I have plenty of screenshots that show this out of 32 bits resources problem (Memory and certainly GDI) :

 

 

 

 

My computer has 32 GB of memory, but the Delphi IDE crash after 2.5 GB...

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by FabDev

[Lajos Juhász 293]

1 hour ago, FabDev said:

And what happens when more than 100 forms are opened at the same time

In that case windows will run out of GDI handles and give error. A 64 bit version of the IDE would have the same problem.

[Anders Melander 1783]

1 hour ago, FabDev said:

My computer has 32 GB of memory, but the Delphi IDE crash after 2.5 GB...

The address space of a 32-bit application is 4GB. Some of that is reserved by Windows. By default 2GB but for Large Address Aware applications (such as the Delphi IDE) it's 1 GB. These values can be customized globally. Your hardware configuration (motherboard, etc..) can have an effect on the reserved size, btw.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/memory/virtual-address-space

 

If you are running out of memory at 2.5GB then the IDE is trying to make an allocation of 0.5 GB or more. This seems unlikely so there could be something else going on. You might wait to check the size of "hardware reserved memory" on your system.

 

1 hour ago, FabDev said:

And what happens when more than 100 forms are opened at the same time or after intensive code completion using or pressing F1 (for help) > out of memory.

100 forms open at the same time is hardly a typical use case. Why would you ever want that?

 

FWIW, I just tried opening all the over 600 forms, frames and datamodules of a project with around 3 million lines of code. It uses DevExpress ribbon, docking, skins, grids, and controls, FireDAC, etc. That consumed 3.4 GB but happily compiled and linked. It's a 64-bit project.

 

I'm not saying that your problem isn't real but I don't think this problem is common enough that it alone justifies migrating the IDE to 64-bit. And I certainly don't think your rhetoric will help your case.

[Anders Melander 1783]

1 hour ago, Lajos Juhász said:

In that case windows will run out of GDI handles and give error.

I think the IDE form designer might work around that; Only one design form can be visible at a time.

Just a guess.

[David Heffernan 2345]

19 minutes ago, Anders Melander said:

If you are running out of memory at 2.5GB then the IDE is trying to make an allocation of 0.5 GB or more. This seems unlikely so there could be something else going on. You might wait to check the size of "hardware reserved memory" on your system.

Address space fragmentation and sub allocation fragmentation. 

[Lajos Juhász 293]

17 minutes ago, Anders Melander said:

I think the IDE form designer might work around that; Only one design form can be visible at a time.

Just a guess.

It's not the case using Delphi 11.2. Tried to open some forms and the used GDI handles (according to the task manager) keeps growing and doesn't goes back.

[luciano_f 5]

4 hours ago, FabDev said:

Of course 64 bits is a need !

 

Each time my Delphi IDE crash process monitor display more than 2.5  Gb used.

 

 My project (25 years) contains more than 7 million lines of code with more than 40 libraries of third-party components, it contains more than 600 forms. And do not say that it is too old because I change version to Delphi version (from 2 to 11.3) and I delete the old libraries (For Example BDE -> IBX -> IBDAC). I use ribbon like Winword 2021 and my latest DevExpress WXI skin and look and feel. Yes of course, some forms contain a lot of components, but in execution there is no problem with the 32-bit version, it's only in Design time.

And what happens when more than 100 forms are opened at the same time or after intensive code completion using or pressing F1 (for help) > out of memory.  This can happens  after 30 minutes or sometimes 2 hours of coding.  I have plenty of screenshots that show this out of 32 bits resources problem (Memory and certainly GDI) :

 

 

 

 

My computer has 32 GB of memory, but the Delphi IDE crash after 2.5 GB...

 

 

And as I say, let's unite and vote to have a 64-Bit IDE
-> vote  https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-33115

We urgently need more robust IDE

 

 

 

 

[Sherlock 663]

11 hours ago, luciano_f said:

We urgently need more robust IDE

Now there is the rub! A 64Bit IDE will be experimental at best. Quite the contrary to a stable IDE. Just consider the introduction of DelphiLSP. Now that Baby started birthing more than three years ago, and it is still not "robust". I'd prefer them to fix the 32Bit IDE to reach a robust stage over them pulling resources to that new construction site.

[FabDev 8]

14 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

 

If you are running out of memory at 2.5GB then the IDE is trying to make an allocation of 0.5 GB or more. This seems unlikely so there could be something else going on. You might wait to check the size of "hardware reserved memory" on your system. 

I haven't say at 2.5 GB but after 2.5 GB. Each time I have out of memory Delphi IDE is near the 32 bits limit.  I have no customised hardware reserved memory. My hardware is very very far away to be an entry level configuration or a limited manufacturer configuration. I have only Out of memory problem with Delphi IDE 32 bits.

 

 

14 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

 

I'm not saying that your problem isn't real but I don't think this problem is common enough that it alone justifies migrating the IDE to 64-bit.

 

If 64 bits can't help to solve a memory problem, what is its purpose?

I use Delphi from version to version and memory issues increase with increasing the size of a project and wizards contained in the IDE. The LSP (extrernal mmory using) have helped a lot to reduce the problems but it's still not enough...

 

 

 

 

Out of resource "white dialog" screenshot :

 

 

 

 

PS : Of course I have no "Out of memory" problem with my little project < 2 millions of line of code

Edited September 26, 2023 by FabDev

[FabDev 8]

59 minutes ago, Sherlock said:

 I'd prefer them to fix the 32Bit IDE to reach a robust stage

Sorry but for me in 2023 any application which crash 10 times by day after using near to 3 GB of memory will be never called an "very useable application". And we don't ask to have only a 64 Bits IDE. Both version the time to stabilise the new one...

Edited September 26, 2023 by FabDev

[Vandrovnik 214]

54 minutes ago, FabDev said:

PS : Of course I have no "Out of memory" problem with my little project < 2 millions of line of code

EPNGOutMemory - may be the reasons is just in the number of simultaneously opened forms (which contains big images)? In that case, 64-bit IDE would solve the problem.

I keep open just a few forms and datamodules, may be that is the reason why I have never encountered this problem.

[FabDev 8]

1 hour ago, Vandrovnik said:

of simultaneously opened forms (which contains big images)?

 

Yes I use a little more than 1200 PNG (icon) on two (24x24 and 16x16) TcxImageList in a commun TDataModule. All my ribbon, toolbar, buttons etc. of my forms are connected to these components. Of course it's take resource to display these icon in design time.

Edited September 26, 2023 by FabDev

[shineworld 73]

Strange you have memory problems in compilation after 300000 lines of code.

I have been compiling projects of almost 20,000,000 lines of code for years on a PC with 16GB of RAM without such problems.

Unfortunately, our software products are almost always free and related to the sale of cheap hardware so for the time

being we have stopped at Sydney UP1 and so I don't know if the error problems with out of memory depend on the version....

What I don't like about the system is that anyway as soon as a new version comes out there are no more patches for the most important stability bugs in the IDE and language server system....
 

[FabDev 8]

In a large project, just launch a search (CTRL + SHIFT + F) and you will see the BDS.exe task increase by 500 MB of memory. How is the impact of 500 MB for a 32 bits application or a 64 bits one ?

Edited September 26, 2023 by FabDev