Do you need an ARM64 compiler for Windows?

[Lars Fosdal 1793]

Vote here

Native ARM64 compiler for Windows for ARM
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-38298

Context:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/24/23139475/microsoft-visual-studio-2022-native-arm-vs-code

[Der schöne Günther 316]

I have lost track for how many times Microsoft has tried to push Windows on ARM, advertised something great, but in the end, nothing of importance happened.

 

It's not that I have anything against Windows on ARM, but if I want a good ARM based computer, I'm getting a M1 Mac.

 

So, do I need an Windows/ARM64 compiler for RAD Studio? No.

Embarcadero should rather focus on core functionality and the many platforms we already have. We don't need another one.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Der schöne Günther

[David Heffernan 2353]

1 hour ago, Der schöne Günther said:

I have lost track for how many times Microsoft has tried to push Windows on ARM, advertised something great, but in the end, nothing of importance happened.

 

It's not that I have anything against Windows on ARM, but if I want a good ARM based computer, I'm getting a M1 Mac.

 

So, do I need an Windows/ARM64 compiler for RAD Studio? No.

Embarcadero should rather focus on core functionality and the many platforms we already have. We don't need another one.

That makes sense if you write programs that only run on computers that you buy.

 

I write programs that run on computers that other people buy.  I suspect that others do likewise.  So I'll need a compiler for any architecture that a large number of customers and potential customers use.  Whether Windows on ARM64 will fit that description anytime soon, I've no idea.

Edited May 25, 2022 by David Heffernan

[Lars Fosdal 1793]

When MS is actually porting VS to Native ARM for Windows - there is no doubt that they are serious about ARM this time.
I am running the Windows for ARM preview on my MBP 16" M1 Pro.
And I am now also running VS 2022 for MacOS - which already is ARM64 🙂

[David Heffernan 2353]

30 minutes ago, Lars Fosdal said:

When MS is actually porting VS to Native ARM for Windows - there is no doubt that they are serious about ARM this time.

Isn't that just recompiling VS with the ARM compiler. 

[Lars Fosdal 1793]

In theory - except there is an OS layer there somewhere.

[tgbs 16]

YES

Not only for Windows but Linux too 🙂

[sjordi 42]

ARM would be cool for some Linux distributions, for robots, some Nvidia distributions, etc...
Embedded systems are sometimes in Ubuntu ARM and it would be cool to be able to deploy for them.

[A.M. Hoornweg 144]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:48 PM, David Heffernan said:

Isn't that just recompiling VS with the ARM compiler. 

(https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2022/05/24/create-next-generation-experiences-at-scale-with-windows/)

 

...   a comprehensive end-to-end Arm-native toolchain for Arm native apps, including:

• Full Visual Studio 2022 & VSCode
• Visual C++"

 

 

 

If by "end-to-end" they mean everything from input to output then the compiler should emit native code.

 

[Stefan Glienke 2019]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:48 PM, David Heffernan said:

Isn't that just recompiling VS with the ARM compiler. 

Yes, just as much as it was just recompiling VS for x64.

[RonaldK 18]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:02 AM, Lars Fosdal said:

Native ARM64 compiler for Windows for ARM

What new functions are planned for Delphi anyway?
Is there still a roadmap for Delphi? I haven't found any more.

 

For example, what about continued support for the iOS Simulator?
That was on the old roadmaps for a long time, but has it all been lost now?

What about the better code generation of the "nextgen" compilers?

 

Delphi has some other work to do at the base.
More compilers/platforms are not helpful here.
 

[Lajos Juhász 295]

6 minutes ago, RonaldK said:

Is there still a roadmap for Delphi? I haven't found any more.

Of course there is. It's true that the public roadmap is a bit old. However the company thinks that it's not important to inform us when we can expect a release or on what they're working now.

[RonaldK 18]

59 minutes ago, Lajos Juhász said:

Of course there is. It's true that the public roadmap is a bit old.

https://blogs.embarcadero.com/de/rad-studio-roadmap-november-2020/
This ends with Delphi 10.5.

1 hour ago, Lajos Juhász said:

However the company thinks that it's not important to inform us when we can expect a release or on what they're working now.

The silence can be understood in one way or another. 

[Lars Fosdal 1793]

EMBT are playing with their cards tightly held to their vest - which I guess is a tactic to avoid getting negative feedback for not delivering something that they put on the roadmap but didn't get time to do.

I wish EMBT were more open and better at communicating their plans - but if you are a subscriber, I recommend joining in on any beta invite that you may receive. 

Please note, though, that those that get invited must sign NDAs - so it is like Fight Club: Rule #1 - Don't talk about Fight Club.

 

But yeah... Public indicative roadmaps would be great.

[David Champion 48]

It's frustrating, I have been looking for a published roadmap too.

 

@Lars FosdalPerhaps, you could open a Non-Technical forum where we as members can speculate wildly and stir up

general dissent.

 

 

 

 

 

[RonaldK 18]

6 minutes ago, David Champion said:

It's frustrating, I have been looking for a published roadmap too.

This "playing dead" is now finding more friends.
DevExpress no longer publishes a Delphi roadmap for 2022 either. Is this a good sign too?
https://supportcenter.devexpress.com/ticket/details/t1072425/vcl-roadmap-2022

[Anders Melander 1815]

1 hour ago, RonaldK said:

DevExpress no longer publishes a Delphi roadmap for 2022 either. Is this a good sign too?
https://supportcenter.devexpress.com/ticket/details/t1072425/vcl-roadmap-2022

Since Russia no longer has (legal) access to moderne computer technology I wouldn't expect much - for the next decade or so.

[Fr0sT.Brutal 900]

41 minutes ago, Anders Melander said:

Since Russia no longer has (legal) access to moderne computer technology I wouldn't expect much - for the next decade or so.

Since Russia has rich and long-lasting experience of sailing under Jolly Roger I wouldn't expect legal issues cause any trouble. From the very beginning of PC era in mid-80s til the end of 00s legally bought software was very rare. Buying, say, something from MS for the home use was considered an insanity

[Anders Melander 1815]

6 minutes ago, Fr0sT.Brutal said:

Since Russia has rich and long-lasting experience of sailing under Jolly Roger I wouldn't expect legal issues cause any trouble. From the very beginning of PC era in mid-80s til the end of 00s legally bought software was very rare. Buying, say, something from MS for the home use was considered an insanity

Sure - And the quality of soft- and hardware from behind the Iron Curtain reflected that fact.

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you represented a professional western software company. Would you accept a dependency on a library such as DevExpress (which is far from cheap), knowing that it was produced using pirated tools on a pirated OS, by developers which may or may not have your best interests in mind? I would not.

Apart from the moral and business aspects there's also one of security. I know a few Russian developers which I fully trust because I know them both professionally and socially but from what I've heard from them I can't assume that all modern, educated Russians are like that. Some of their former colleagues would be happy to see the west go up in flames.

[RonaldK 18]

It's probably more about the Embarcadero development team. Isn't the Idera development model made up of freelance developers?
Aren't they mostly based in Ukraine and Russia?  
Perhaps this development model currently has serious problems.

[David Champion 48]

David Millington works in Eastonia.

 

https://muckrack.com/david-millington

 

So I guess the C++Builder development team has an office in that location.

 

 

[Stefan Glienke 2019]

By that logic the Delphi team must be located near Piacenza 🙄

[Fr0sT.Brutal 900]

2 hours ago, David Champion said:

David Millington works in Eastonia.

 

https://muckrack.com/david-millington

 

So I guess the C++Builder development team has an office in that location.

That's why the CB development is SOOOO slow 😄

3 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

Apart from the moral and business aspects there's also one of security. I know a few Russian developers which I fully trust because I know them both professionally and socially but from what I've heard from them I can't assume that all modern, educated Russians are like that. Some of their former colleagues would be happy to see the west go up in flames.

Well, then you should be also frightening of USA developers that you don't know personally because CIA/DOD has long story of injecting backdoors into well-known tools. Not talking about Chinese developers that obey to communist party (goddamn commies want to eat the whole world!)

[Anders Melander 1815]

34 minutes ago, Fr0sT.Brutal said:

you should be also frightening of USA developers that you don't know personally because CIA/DOD has long story of injecting backdoors into well-known tools.

There's a difference between someone spying on me for their own gains and someone trying to harm me just because they're angry at everybody else. I'm not that concerned about the former.

[Fritzew 51]

Hey people back to work......
VS 2022 ARM is out as preview.  I have installed on a Mac-Mini M1 Parallels WIN11 ARM. The speed is superb.