Code signing certificates have become so expensive...

[RaelB 4]

Hi,

Looking at www.ksoftware.net, the prices have gone up by about 3x since a few years ago. Any idea why they've become so expensive? Any cheaper options?

 

[Angus Robertson 576]

The price increase is down to code signing certificates needing to be shipped on USB dongles instead of as files.

 

Angus

 

[RaelB 4]

I am referring to OV code signing certificates. I just received an email from ksoftware indicating that the process would be as before, i.e., the key is received/generated via a browser,

 

"Sectigo will issue the new certificate directly to you via email, don't forget to collect on the same PC/Browser that you used in Step 1, then you can export to a PFX/P12 file..."

[Angus Robertson 576]

I suspect that is a fault in K-Software's automated systems, not been updated since tokens became mandatory.  The web site does say 'Secure token available'  which means is not really optional. 

 

My three year K-Sotfware certificate expires next month, so just about to go through the same process. 

 

Angus

 

[stijnsanders 36]

I haven't done code signing before, can you use any certificate for it? Would one of these people work? https://www.gandi.net/en/security

[Rollo62 538]

1 minute ago, stijnsanders said:

I haven't done code signing before, can you use any certificate for it? Would one of these people work? https://www.gandi.net/en/security

I would say no, this seems to be SSL ceretificates, which are free from LetsEncrypt, but no proper CodeSigning certificates, IMHO.
Please proove me wrong

[RaelB 4]

10 minutes ago, Angus Robertson said:

I suspect that is a fault in K-Software's automated systems, not been updated since tokens became mandatory.  The web site does say 'Secure token available'  which means is not really optional.

Yeah, it looks like you're right. I sent ksoftware an email a few days ago, asking about the price increase, and so far I haven't received a reply.

 

I've now looked at https://codesigningstore.com and they state there clearly that delivery is via USB token. Wow this is a big change. I imagine downloading unsigned software is going to become more common from smaller vendors...

 

@stijnsanders No, SSL certificates are very different, and alot cheaper or even available for free.

 

[Anders Melander 1813]

AFAIK you can use any certificate (at least that used to be the case[*] - maybe a bug in signtool) but only code signing certificates will be validated as such so there's not much point in trying to use something else. What would be the point?

 

*) Back in the day, when Denmark introduced digital IDs, every citizen got issued a certificate. So naturally I used my personal certificate to sign all my software 🙂

 

I think that the new certificates are still just files. They just need to be on a secure token in order to be usable. AFAIK once you have a token with a certificate on it you can copy it to other tokens. That's what we are planning on doing anyway; We just received an EV certificate on a token and two extra blank tokens yesterday. One is used by the build server (via Signotaur - works great!), one will go in the safe for backup, and one will be shipped to me for R&D (my client is in another country), and in the darkness bind them.

[Anders Melander 1813]

I can see that at both ssl.com and signmycode.com you can buy a code signing certificate without a token. I don't know how they then deliver it.

 

As far as I can tell codesigningstore.com also offer that option but J.F.C they're expensive! $566 for a 1 year EV certificate without a token.
The same costs $299 at signmycode or $349 at ssl.com.

 

Btw, don't believe their claim of 1-5 days to issue an EV certificate. It takes at least double that - and a clonable DNA sample from your firstborn.

[Angus Robertson 576]

Sure you can copy a certificate from a token, the certificate is also in every program you sign. 

 

But the token keeps the certificate private key secure so it can not be copied, shared or stolen, which means you can only sign code with the token, which actually handles the sign operation, the private key never leaves the token.

 

There are ways to remotely sign code using the cloud or remote servers, suggest reading https://www.finalbuilder.com/resources/blogs/code-signing-with-usb-tokens

 

Microsoft also has a remote signing solution https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/azure/trusted-signing/

 

Angus

[Anders Melander 1813]

50 minutes ago, Angus Robertson said:

But the token keeps the certificate private key secure so it can not be copied, shared or stolen, which means you can only sign code with the token, which actually handles the sign operation, the private key never leaves the token.

And yet you can apparently copy the certificate onto another token. I don't know how it's done yet, as I haven't tried it, but according to the certificate providers it is possible.

 

47 minutes ago, Angus Robertson said:

Microsoft also has a remote signing solution

So do most of the certificate providers but they're all subscription based and they're not cheap.

[Joseph MItzen 252]

11 hours ago, Rollo62 said:

I would say no, this seems to be SSL ceretificates, which are free from LetsEncrypt, but no proper CodeSigning certificates, IMHO.
Please proove me wrong

Aren't they all just random bunches of alphanumeric characters?

[Patrick PREMARTIN 79]

The CSC are available only on physical token or by a cloud hosting solution like Amazon HSM (https://aws.amazon.com/fr/cloudhsm/).

 

If a provider tells you an other thing, it talks about an SSL certificate or it's not a real CSC provider.

 

The less expensive I've found is Certum. I use them since two years.

If you choose the token they send a USB SIM card reader (not compatible with Windows ARM) and a SIM for the storage. After that the certificate is delivered directly to the token by a Java app. The PIN code is needed for each signature.

If you choose the cloud CSC you will have to use a Java app each time you sign to allow access to the certificate.

 

Other provider has physical keys which need or don't need the PIN for each signature. Check before ordering.

 

If you try Certum, order here : https://certum.store/data-safety/code-signing-certificates.html

 

Choose the "Standard code signing" in the cloud or set (the box with SIM+card reader) depending on what you need.

 

[Kas Ob. 121]

12 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

And yet you can apparently copy the certificate onto another token. I don't know how it's done yet, as I haven't tried it, but according to the certificate providers it is possible.

Well, this is easy and hard to explain at the same time, it is very easy as cryptographically process and there is many standardized schemes to ship keys/data in an encrypted way, but harder to explain in plain human language, but .. I will give an example on how this is done ,

 

As example take how secure connection are established between browsers and this site, the client (browser) and server negotiated a shared key, by shared key i mean they used specific algorithm to reach the same key without shipping (sending) it, but older algorithms were way more simple as the key wasn't shared but generated on peer side (client and server) and shipped in encrypted form, this was called key encapsulation,

meaning client and/or server generated their own keys and sent it to other party, this was and is still secure,

 

how it was secure ? because the client after receiving the server certificate used the server public key to encrypt its own chosen key (aka encapsulate it) and send it, only server or any party has the private key can extract that key.

 

Now, what if we replace client and server by hardware token, and make the private and public key already in the hardware !! this will make shipping private key (or any payload) between tokens secure and only who know the already stored private key (should be no one away from the one who stored them) can extract these keys, and this how token can be copied or duplicated.

 

On side note, most secure and modern post quantum cryptography algorithms are incapable of key sharing and only do key encapsulation !

[Rollo62 538]

11 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

...
So do most of the certificate providers but they're all subscription based and they're not cheap.

I'm not on Azure subscription, but according to this article I can see 9.99USD / month.
https://melatonin.dev/blog/code-signing-on-windows-with-azure-trusted-signing/

 

 

That would be not completely bad, since also Apples developer fee is 99 USD / year, so its playing in the same league,

Or did I miss any other "Azure fees" adding up costs here?

 

Generally I would say this is an acceptable price for such service, similar like Apple's 99 USD / year which is at an reasonable rate, offering even more than just code signing.
Considering that if I estimate "codesigning only" from all those Apple services, I maybe get down to 25 USD / year as the "real" price for such service, don't you think?
 

14 hours ago, RaelB said:

... Wow this is a big change. I imagine downloading unsigned software is going to become more common from smaller vendors...

Exactly, all those "money-makers" from CodeSigning miss the main point:
! CodeSigning's purpose is to reduce the (virus-) danger of unsigned, untested apps and tools in the wilderness.

 

If Microsoft and others would really care about, they would deliver codesigning services at <= 25 USD / year, so that also every hobby-programmer would choose that.

With certificate cost at >= 500,00 USD you only prevent many formerly codesigned, free open-source apps from prolonging.

 

All that considered, it should be in Microsofts core interest, to offer a reasonable or even free CodeSigning service, just to accelerate their Windows platform reputation, IMHO.
Similar like Apple does.

 

 

[John R. 18]

9 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

I'm not on Azure subscription, but according to this article I can see 9.99USD / month.
https://melatonin.dev/blog/code-signing-on-windows-with-azure-trusted-signing/

 

That would be not completely bad, since also Apples developer fee is 99 USD / year, so its playing in the same league,

Or did I miss any other "Azure fees" adding up costs here?

Looks like the price is right: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/trusted-signing/

Last time I purchased a code signing certificate via KSoftware I paid $188.10 for 3 years which makes it $5.225 / month. Next time I need to renew, I'll probably get the Azure one, which, even at double that price, have the advantages of not needing a USB dongle while being managed by Microsoft itself. So, far more trustworthy than the outdated websites and processes I had to endure in the past.

Edited 4 hours ago by John R.

[Angus Robertson 576]

One interesting concept of the Azure code signing certificates is they expire within two days, effectively created daily on demand. 

 

While such a short expiry is impractical for servers, code signing relies on a time stamp, so applications can be used for many years beyond the certificate life. 

 

Angus

 

[Anders Melander 1813]

1 hour ago, Rollo62 said:

I'm not on Azure subscription, but according to this article I can see 9.99USD / month.

It's not that bad for the lower tiers but I was more comparing the premium tier (i.e. more than one certificate) @ $1200/year against something like Signotaur @ $200/forever.

[Vincent Parrett 759]

18 hours ago, Anders Melander said:

AFAIK once you have a token with a certificate on it you can copy it to other tokens

This is not quite right. YOU cannot just copy it, the private key cannot be exported from the token (the whole point of using hardware to store the key) - however the CA's you purchase the certificate from can issue you multiple tokens with the same certificate/private key - at a cost of course. 

[Vincent Parrett 759]

1 hour ago, Rollo62 said:

I'm not on Azure subscription, but according to this article I can see 9.99USD / month.

When I looked at it, it also forced us to use Entra ID for 2 factor authentication - which pushed up the price considerably - if I were using Azure for anything else it wouldn't be a big deal - but I'm not. 

[Anders Melander 1813]

5 minutes ago, Vincent Parrett said:

the CA's you purchase the certificate from can issue you multiple tokens with the same certificate/private key - at a cost of course. 

But how do they then get the certificate onto my token if I already have a token?

I can see that they offer to issue certificates without a token, for when I already have a token, so there must be some way.

[dummzeuch 1515]

28 minutes ago, Anders Melander said:

But how do they then get the certificate onto my token if I already have a token?

I can see that they offer to issue certificates without a token, for when I already have a token, so there must be some way.

That you can't extract the certificate does not mean that you cannot write a new one to the token. Otherwise, how would they create those tokens with a certificate?

[DelphiUdIT 182]

1 hour ago, Anders Melander said:

But how do they then get the certificate onto my token if I already have a token?

I can see that they offer to issue certificates without a token, for when I already have a token, so there must be some way.

 

1 hour ago, dummzeuch said:

That you can't extract the certificate does not mean that you cannot write a new one to the token. Otherwise, how would they create those tokens with a certificate?

I bought an EV certificate yesterday from Certum ( @Patrick PREMARTIN  talked about it in a previous post) obviously on physical media (USB Reader + SIM). And they confirmed to me that the SIM is "virgin", it will be written with the certificates once it arrives in my possession and after confirmation of the header data.
Again, with each update (I will do it after three years) both the public and private key will be lost because everything will be overwritten.
Now I await delivery and the subsequent activation processes.
I don't know if the "writing" and activation process will be online or if they will send me something.

[Angus Robertson 576]

I have no idea of the procedures used by certificate authorities with dongles. 

 

But technically, the end user creates a certificate signing request using the private key in the dongle, that is sent to the CA that creates a certificate with the details and public key from the CSR and signs the new certificate that is returned to the purchaser and is loaded back into the dongle.

 

The CA is not allowed to see or keep private keys, in the past millions of certificates have been cancelled when a CA was found to kept private keys it issued online. 

 

In practice, to make life easy for purchasers they want to ship a dongle with a new private key and certificate loaded, which is effectively a manual process, someone needs to plug the dongle into a PC or appliance and run an app to do it all.  Thus the horrible cost.  

 

Angus

 

[Patrick PREMARTIN 79]

5 minutes ago, DelphiUdIT said:

I don't know if the "writing" and activation process will be online or if they will send me something.

All will be done online with a little program to download (they provide all links and docs during the process).

You should receive the box soon. When received, if Certum hasn't responded after 2 days, don't hesitate to tell support so that they can start the control procedure. When I renewed late this year, everything was done in less than 5 working days (I reused the token I received the year before).