Delphi and the new Apple M1 CPU

[Hans♫ 59]

On 2/7/2021 at 2:42 AM, Nasreddine said:

did you manage to solve it? I have M1 as well and with same error

No it still doesn't work, and I realize I forgot to create an issue about it. Now it is there:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-32362

[Nasreddine 2]

2 hours ago, Hans♫ said:

No it still doesn't work, and I realize I forgot to create an issue about it. Now it is there:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-32362

I added a comment too, They removed voting????

[Dalija Prasnikar 817]

5 minutes ago, Nasreddine said:

I added a comment too, They removed voting????

I just voted. 

[Lars Fosdal 1029]

Voted and watched too.  

[Nasreddine 2]

On 2/8/2021 at 3:17 PM, Dalija Prasnikar said:

I just voted. 

the first time I could not see the area where to click to add a vote, but after couple of hours I went back to see the description and I was able to vote.
I really hope they fix it fast,
I purchased an M1 just to test the project I'm working on and now I can't debug. I'm also facing issues where the app works great on an intel machine but fails on an M1 one.
we have to wait at least 8 months for 10.5 to be able to target arm.  

[Hans♫ 59]

10 hours ago, Nasreddine said:

I'm also facing issues where the app works great on an intel machine but fails on an M1 one.

I have not seen any yet. Where do you experience problems?

 

10 hours ago, Nasreddine said:

we have to wait at least 8 months for 10.5 to be able to target arm.  

Maybe. There is a chance that you could implement debugging without offering arm as a target, but I suppose it would rely on the Rosetta 2 emulator, if that implements mapping of instructions and memory for debugging purpose. With the limited development ressources that Embarcadero can put into it, we are probably not seeing debugging support for the M1 until they make a full support of the M1 ARM target.

[Nasreddine 2]

@Hans♫ it was permission errors but the new 11.1.2 BigSur update fixed them for the M1 target.
 

Quote

we are probably not seeing debugging support for the M1 until they make a full support of the M1 ARM target.

this is a confirmed guess I think, we asked them on the latest webinar and they said that they know about the problem but they can not give any time frame about the solution.   

[Cristian Peța 61]

Something about performance:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-8700K+%40+3.70GHz&id=3098

[Attila Kovacs 393]

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/318020-flaw-current-measurements-x86-versus-apple-m1-performance

 

 

still impressive

 

Edited March 4 by Attila Kovacs

[Lars Fosdal 1029]

https://www.theverge.com/22383598/parallels-desktop-mac-windows-10-install-m1-macbook

 

Quote

Parallels is releasing an update to its Desktop virtual machine software that allows M1 Mac owners to install Windows 10 on Arm. Parallels Desktop 16.5 now includes the necessary native support to run the Arm version of Windows on M1 chips, following Apple’s decision not to support Boot Camp on M1 Macs.

 

The latest version of Parallels Desktop for Mac now allows M1 Mac owners to run Windows 10 on Arm apps or traditional x86 apps side by side with Mac or iOS apps on Big Sur. There will be some app limitations on the Windows 10 on Arm side, thanks to its own app emulation, but Windows 10 on Arm will soon support x64 app emulation, too.

 

[Rollo62 320]

I want to re-activate this old thread, but its still a current topic.

 

Apple launched their new M1 Pro and M1 chips and Max MacBook Pro's

https://www.apple.com/apple-events/october-2021/?cid=CDM-USA-DM-P0021510-488761

 

Well, I'm not an Apple salesman, but I better should be.

This really blows all other laptops away, if it works as smooth as desired.

It has an tremendous "wanna-have" factor, and the prices are not even that dramatic as I expected, like for example the Intel i9 versions.

 

I think Intel ( Wintel ) will loose even more ground on the chip business, because there are no big reasons to buy large desktop workstations any longer, with such power in a small box.

By Rosetta this supports ARM M1 and Intel x86 anyway, with good compatibility and at high performance, so I think Wintel / AMD will see a hard future.

 

Of course you have to move from soft Win-Wonderland to the aluminium-hard Mac-World, which is a little disturbing as a user/developer for some weeks or months.

But as always, some things I find annoying everyday, some things I love, but there is nothing which you couldn't get close to.

 

Who's next PC will be a MacBook Pro Max, I'm curious ?

 

 

[Wil van Antwerpen 23]

Hi,

 

13 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

By Rosetta this supports ARM M1 and Intel x86 anyway, with good compatibility and at high performance, so I think Wintel / AMD will see a hard future.

One note about Rosetta.
Apple has switched CPU platforms several times. If the past predicts anything then Rosetta will be part of macOS for about 2 releases of macOS and disappear. It's designed to assist in migrating from one platform to another, not intended to stick around forever.

[Sherlock 420]

45 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

Who's next PC will be a MacBook Pro Max, I'm curious ?

Anyone with no need for USB peripherals I guess...

[Rollo62 320]

31 minutes ago, Wil van Antwerpen said:

If the past predicts anything then Rosetta will be part of macOS for about 2 releases of macOS and disappear. It's designed to assist in migrating from one platform to another, not intended to stick around forever.

That is a very good point, maybe that is not so good news if Wintel is needed, like for Delphi.

It would be worth checking that with Apple, and try to get some clear guarantees.

 

On the other hand, this time they are not moving from IBM to Intel, but from x86,

which means they will have the chance to catch Wintel users in the long run.

Why should they kill a well working emulator solution, which can attract all the Windows users to M1, I think cancelling that would be a stupid marketing decision.

 

3 minutes ago, Sherlock said:

Anyone with no need for USB peripherals I guess...

At least they had added some more interfaces, like HDMI, etc. this is what their advertising said, not sure in detail how many USB sockets they have.

But I'm used to have a short USB-Hub dongle plugged in anyway, so not that big deal for me.

 

[Sherlock 420]

Yeah, scratch my remark, please. USB-C is Thunderbolt compatible.

[Wil van Antwerpen 23]

3 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

Why should they kill a well working emulator solution, which can attract all the Windows users to M1, I think cancelling that would be a stupid marketing decision

Rosetta doesn't even work for Windows?
Virtualisation platforms are not supported. If you run Windows in a VM then you have to run an Arm version and MS hasn't provided a license for that (and it isn't looking great on them going to provide you a license to run on non partner hardware)
Also note that there's no bootcamp support now for the M1 platform.

 

As for why cancelling something that works?
Only apple knows, but it smells a bit like "lock in", but also less maintenance costs.

[Rollo62 320]

4 minutes ago, Wil van Antwerpen said:

Virtualisation platforms are not supported. If you run Windows in a VM then you have to run an Arm version and MS hasn't provided a license for that (and it isn't looking great on them going to provide you a license to run on non partner hardware)

I still have hope that we will see VmWare or the like on M1 Macos, which is able to support x86 Win10/11.

That would leave the problem to VmWare to make it run.

I haven't thought too deeply about what that conversion would mean on the CPU virtualization side of an entire OS, but why not its also simply a "program"

Yes, maybe a missing hypervisor emulation would be a problem.

[Wagner Landgraf 25]

53 minutes ago, Wil van Antwerpen said:

Virtualisation platforms are not supported. If you run Windows in a VM then you have to run an Arm version and MS hasn't provided a license for that

Doesn't Windows 11 already provide ARM support?

[Wil van Antwerpen 23]

59 minutes ago, Rollo62 said:

I still have hope that we will see VmWare or the like on M1 Macos, which is able to support x86 Win10/11.

That would leave the problem to VmWare to make it run.

I haven't thought too deeply about what that conversion would mean on the CPU virtualization side of an entire OS, but why not its also simply a "program"

Yes, maybe a missing hypervisor emulation would be a problem.

Neither is going to happen, at least not from VMware or from Apple.
VMware in particular has been very clear about this. For example here: https://blogs.vmware.com/teamfusion/2021/04/fusion-on-apple-silicon-progress-update.html but it is not just that one article. The Product Manager has mentioned it many times. They actually looked into it and have decided on not going there. Who knows if there's a skunk works in house version that is capable of doing exactly that. But there has been no hints in that direction, the "not going to happen" signals have been much stronger.

15 minutes ago, Wagner Landgraf said:

Doesn't Windows 11 already provide ARM support?

Yes there is a Windows insider version running ARM and it runs well.
The problem is that Microsoft does not provide licenses for that and so far there are no indications that they ever will. Windows on Arm only works with OEM hardware suppliers and apple isn't one of them.
It is mostly (exclusively?) bundled with laptops having a Snapdragon processor. One could run on a VM with a Windows insider build, but that's not exactly production ready.

Edited Tuesday at 12:09 PM by Wil van Antwerpen
clarifying bundle licensing

[Wagner Landgraf 25]

3 minutes ago, Wil van Antwerpen said:

The problem is that Microsoft does not provide licenses for that and so far there are no indications that they ever will. Windows on Arm only works with OEM hardware suppliers and apple isn't one of them.

That was true for Windows 10, are you sure it will be the same for Windows 11? I believe ARM in Windows 11 will be a 1st class citizen like Intel.

[Lajos Juhász 52]

 

This is the first search result on youtube.

[Wil van Antwerpen 23]

20 minutes ago, Wagner Landgraf said:

That was true for Windows 10, are you sure it will be the same for Windows 11? I believe ARM in Windows 11 will be a 1st class citizen like Intel.

I have no crystal ball and really hope you are right on that, but so far the signals have not been very hopeful.
For example: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/09/14/arm-windows-m1-macs-not-supported/

From what I've read the only supported version of Windows on a M1 mac is via Windows running in the cloud.

[Rollo62 320]

If there is no way to use Win x86 on this nice M1 MacBook Max machine, this will be a showstopper for me.

So I will be probably locked-in on Intel desktop then, lets wait and see.

I don't believe in Win on ARM and Microsofts x86 emulation that much, so maybe time will tell.

 

[Fritzew 44]

I don't think there will be an Emulation on M1 for running x86 Windows. So as Delphi Developer the latest 2019 MPro will be the latest.
I would like to see an option but without a ARM Windows with a fast Emulation? no hope. I have here a a 2019 MacBook Pro 16" with I9 from last year so I think there is time to wait.
But the "want have" is so "BIG". 

[Lars Fosdal 1029]

I "need" one too.  If it can't run Windows, I'd still be able to make music with it.  

But - it will run the Windows 11 for ARM preview...
https://www.parallels.com/blogs/windows-11-tpm/