VCL - DevExpress

[mtepebag 0]

Hey there,

 

It's Mert, newest guy at the forum. Saw that community is talking for important topics.

 

I would like to ask a question to you all.

 

First of all, I asked it first to @ertank , He answered me with significant words. I appreciate it.

 

Me and my team jumped to C++Builder 11.2 about 1 month ago. We were using Embarcadero's previous versions but we want to add new features to our project with new developed components. Everybody know that DevExpress is also developing lovely components to VCL environment.

 

My question is; if we take away DevExpress cost, is it most likely necessary to use and build our project with DevExpress components. What's about Embarcadero's own developed components vs DevExpress features? 

 

Is Embarcadero doing good job with their new components or are they not caring enough?

On the other hand, what's about DevExpress VCL features?

 

Waiting comments from you all. Thanks.

 

 

 

[Attila Kovacs 629]

Yes.

[Bill Meyer 337]

2 hours ago, Attila Kovacs said:

Yes.

Well. That is, after all, a significant word.

[David Schwartz 426]

Ever since Borland released Delphi, there has been one overriding dictate: The stuff in the box needs to be "useful", not "the best". Unlike Microsoft, who has a history of buying up great tools and dumping them into their products, Borland wanted to draw a line and say to vendors, "Feel free to build better stuff than this, we won't interfere." And that attitude continues today.

 

(I can't speak for C++ Builder as it has been more of a distant step-child of Dephi's forever. They've been working hard at making it more of an "equal", but the language has become so verbose and the libraries so complex that I find Delphi to be much simpler and easier to work with. Not to mention that Delphi's "generics" and C++'s "templates" are not the same. C++ and Delphi have about 95% overlap in their semantics, but there's some nice stuff I used regularly when I worked with C++ that Delphi simply doesn't support syntactically, and probably never will.)

 

Here's a bit of a history lesson that may be more than you want to know, but it answers your question quite thoroughly:

 

A lot of component libs were created for Dephi that barely added much to the existing stuff; they sold well because they were fairly cheap and saved more time than they cost. Over time, most of them have either disappeared or been turned into FOSS libs. Even some fairly big ones.

 

But if you look closely, for example, at Raize Components, my thinking is, "this is what the base components in Delphi should be!" I'm guessing that Raize got to the point where they sold so few licenses that they just sold the rights to EMBT and washed their hands of the product. But here you can see that original attitude perfectly: EMBT initially started trying to sell this wonderful library for WAY more than Raize charged, and it utterly failed -- I'm guessing because people didn't like the idea of shelling out several hundred dollars for something that looks like the next evolution of what you get in the box. So they made it free and added it to the GetIt library, and it lives on there. I've used Raize Components on every project I can rather than the built-in components because they're so much easier to work with.  However, I've noticed that Embt regularly adds more updates to the base components than to the Raize Components, and they'll never replace the base components with Raize Components even though most of the latter are literally derived from the former. (That is, TMemo and TrzMemo are both derived from TCustomMemo, and TMemo adds nothing in terms of logic to TCustomMemo, which is how the library is designed.)

 

So you can see that even when the company has had a great reason and opportunity to upgrade the basic components in a meaningful way, they STILL refused!

 

If we were to say that Raize is a relatively small improvement on the built-in components, like traveling across town, then DevEx is more like going to the Moon in comparison!

 

DevEx started out as Delphi-only, but as Delphi sales shrunk, they expanded to cover C# and other platforms (eg, C++) as appropriate. Several big libraries did this, just as a way to survive, thankfully. Because if they hadn't, they wouldn't still be around today.

 

Another vendor that has been VERY ACTIVELY building stuff that enhances Delphi's base components is TMS Software. I believe they have the widest selection of "Made-for-Delphi" components on the market today. And they're constantly releasing improvements across the board. Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of their Biz library, WEB Core tools, and FNC components, and I've used their VCL components in projects here and there many times over the years. I think that WEB Core is taking Delphi in a direction (web apps) that fits where the market is clearly heading, and there's no sign that EMBT has any interest in going in that direction -- so don't expect anything out-of-the-box to get you there today, or probably ever.

 

Long story short, whatever comes "in the box" with Delphi is a "starting point". Very few projects I've worked on find it adequate to build a well-embellished application that has a lot of user-friendly features included -- at least, not without a lot of manual customization of existing components if not fully customized extensions.

 

(I worked on a project once where Management thought TMS charged WAY too much for their ALL-ACCESS Pass when it was only around $1200 USD, and instead had three devs each working for nearly 6 montus building custom components that duplicated what some stuff in the TMS VCL Pack does. Those Devs cost them around $50k each to build components they could have gotten by paying $1200 per seat -- plus dozens more! Never mind that the annual renewal cost for ALL-ACCESS is only 30% of the new license cost, and those fees allow THEM to deal with all of the maintenance and updates.)

[Attila Kovacs 629]

2 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

EMBT initially started trying to sell this wonderful library for WAY more than Raize charged, and it utterly failed

Naaaah. I bought it for 500 bucks. In a year it became free.

 

2 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

So you can see that even when the company has had a great reason and opportunity to upgrade the basic components in a meaningful way, they STILL refused!

 

Naaaah. FMX was on the table and VCL is abandoned.

 

2 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

If we were to say that Raize is a relatively small improvement on the built-in components

Not anymore. Plenty of HDPI issues and EMBT won't spend money on fixing it because VCL is abandoned.

 

 

2 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

If we were to say that Raize is a relatively small improvement on the built-in components, like traveling across town, then DevEx is more like going to the Moon in comparison!

 

Way behind! I'd say loading a form is like going to Canis Majoris. And also as big in size.

 

2 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

TMS

Sadly they are not bother noticing you on updates nor do they keep old versions to download. Like any of them would cost a penny.... 

 

 

There is howerver https://www.almdev.com/prods/stylecontrols/stylecontrols.html maybe the last actively maintained VCL pack with some awesome components.

Don't be afraid of the colorful sample images. They are by default just as grey as the built in components and it's cheap and has a Lifetime license. No upgrade fees.

 

 

Anyway, I still don't understand the original question. What EMB components do you want to compare to what DevExpress components? It makes no sense.

I think there were about 5 new VCL calendars released in the last 5 years and thats all.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Attila Kovacs

[programmerdelphi2k 237]

Indeed, DevExpress is a great collection of components that pretty much meets almost every VCL project need.

 

 But like everything big, it is expensive for small projects or individual programmer.  On the other hand, RAD Studio provides a good option for any project that doesn't need to be more beautiful than useful.  

 

Now, if you want to prioritize "beauty" to the detriment of useful things, then you will need to look for third-party suites, or invest in internal labor to produce them.  

 

As this does not seem to be your option, then, the replacement of DevExpress by TMS (currently in great prominence) can be a great acquisition.  

 

Especially in the range of VCL and FMX (multiplatform) components they have, unlike DevExpress (VCL-oriented)

[David Schwartz 426]

6 hours ago, Attila Kovacs said:

Naaaah. I bought it for 500 bucks. In a year it became free.

What do you mean "Naaaaaah."  That's exactly what I said! I refused to buy it!

 

Raize charged a small upgrade fee ($69 or so) every time they updated the library, which was every few years, and they provided free upgrades each time Delphi required an update.

 

Embt bought it, tried selling it with ANNUAL FEES (several hundred dollars) that simply got you an update every time Dephi was updated -- something Raise had always offered for FREE.

 

That didn't work out well, did it? After 18 months and one upgrade with no new features in it, they dumped it into GetIt where they DO now provide it for free along with free updates each time Delphi is updated as well. And they even make small tweaks to it here and there. I still prefer it over the basic components. 

 

Quote

Naaaah. FMX was on the table and VCL is abandoned.

I played with FMX a bit, thinking it might be a good replacement for VCL, and it's not that. It's tolerable if you want to use their cross-platform tools for UI stuff. People constantly bitched and complained that while it provided a more-or-less consistent UI experience for the same app on different platforms, it was slow and buggy and inconsistent with the "native" controls on other platforms that most people were used to. So OTHER VENDORS came out with components that let you build cross-platform apps using "native" controls. I don't know if Embt ever saw the light, as I don't even pay attention to FMX any more. I'm glad you seem to like it, I think it's worthless.

 

Anyway, I get the impression that YOU basically have abandoned VCL. That's all I've ever worked with. Every project I've worked on used VCL and many used DevEx. NOBODY used Dephi for anything but Windows development. 

 

You seem to be blind to the fact that the vast majority of Embt's customers are large corporations with huge apps built in the early 2000's that are still alive and kicking and making them tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

 

Cross-platform stuff seemed to be a "hail Mary" approach at something desperately needed to revive interest in something that was on its dying legs outside of Corporate America.  It still is here in America, but seems to be doing much better in several foreign countries.

 

One thing we probably DO agree on is that the world seems to have moved on to Web-based apps. There's no evidence that Embt even has anything on the horizon in that respect. TMS is YEARS ahead of them with WEB Core! There's a company that got there 10 years ago, Elevate Software, that's still poking along, but it seems to be a one-man shop. Maybe Embt could buy them up and try competing with TMS?

 

Working with WEB Core takes a little getting used to, but it's quite refreshing and I **LOVE** being able to build an app in Delphi and seeing it run inside of a web browser!!!

[Attila Kovacs 629]

@David Schwartz Irony and sarcasm man, you missed every point.

[David Schwartz 426]

14 minutes ago, Attila Kovacs said:

@David Schwartz Irony and sarcasm man, you missed every point.

I learned long ago that Irony and sarcasm don't come across in a written media like this. So don't blame me cause I don't know you well enough to tell the difference. Heck, I have a hard enough time when some of my friends are being sarcastic! 🙂

Edited February 18, 2023 by David Schwartz

[dummzeuch 1505]

44 minutes ago, Attila Kovacs said:

@David Schwartz Irony and sarcasm man, you missed every point.

If I hadn't seen this post before reading the previous one, I wouldn't have recognised the sarcasm there either.

[Roger Cigol 103]

I agree with @Attila Kovacs Irony and Sarcasm are rarely helpful in a forum such as this. Good in pubs when discussing over a beer or two perhaps. If I feel a need for a bit of sarcasm I try to remember to add a hint such as < not! > after the sentence.

By the way I am in the category of using EBT for "useful" rather than "beautiful" software.

[Attila Kovacs 629]

Quote

I agree with @Attila Kovacs Irony and Sarcasm are rarely helpful in a forum such as this.

 

I'm not surprised then you don't even know who you agree with.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Attila Kovacs

[Roger Cigol 103]

I agree with @Attila Kovacs < not! >

[programmerdelphi2k 237]

I would like to hear Google-BARD AI's opinion on the above debate, would you please give your opinion?  

 

Of course, let me just refer to the MS ChatGPT...

 

ok, ChatGPT, I think they waste their time by being too idle in time.  So I hand the word back to MS.  (sorry, my fault ... to BARD)

 

Okay, BARD... as my colleagues confirm... we are looping over opinions of a character closely linked to the cultural aspect of each member involved in the debate.  Which, indeed, will end as it began... in nothing!

 

 thanks for watching

Edited February 18, 2023 by programmerdelphi2k

[Roger Cigol 103]

I definitely agree with this (even though I am not quite sure who I am agreeing with !)

 

[Ian Branch 127]

13 hours ago, David Schwartz said:

There's a company that got there 10 years ago, Elevate Software, that's still poking along, but it seems to be a one-man shop. Maybe Embt could buy them up and try competing with TMS?

Nnnnoooooo!!!!!    Yes, Tim is a one man shop, but he poduces excellent products at a great price and excellent support.  Let's keep it that way....

[David Schwartz 426]

3 hours ago, Ian Branch said:

Nnnnoooooo!!!!!    Yes, Tim is a one man shop, but he poduces excellent products at a great price and excellent support.  Let's keep it that way....

LOL! When I first heard about TMS WEB Core, I thought, hmmm ... maybe Tim finally caught somebody's attention. But alas, TMS was working with another team entirely.

 

 

[omnibrain 15]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:08 AM, David Schwartz said:

One thing we probably DO agree on is that the world seems to have moved on to Web-based apps. There's no evidence that Embt even has anything on the horizon in that respect. TMS is YEARS ahead of them with WEB Core! There's a company that got there 10 years ago, Elevate Software, that's still poking along, but it seems to be a one-man shop. Maybe Embt could buy them up and try competing with TMS?

 

Working with WEB Core takes a little getting used to, but it's quite refreshing and I **LOVE** being able to build an app in Delphi and seeing it run inside of a web browser!!!

The trouble with web is less about the development of the user interfaces (web apps), but more that most developers that did desktop application development their whole life are still stuck in desktop developer paradigmns. They are stuck not only in the UI paradigmns, but also have often no clue how authentication works, how to build software for zero trust environments, how to deploy the whole stack, etc, how to work with the latency.

 

For those it would need a new generation of RAD tools. An IDE that lets them build client and server, auth and everything is handled by the framework and when they press "build" they get a docker container ready for deployment.

[David Schwartz 426]

Yes, it reminds me of the learning curve involved with learning object-oriented programming. 

 

I find that authentication is one thing, but I'd prefer to be able to use a framework that has the DB and everything in place so I don't have to create all of that infrastructure. It's kind of like buying a lock and having to build your own doors and mechanisms to work with it. I'd rather have an entire doorframe and door with a lock already installed and a safe persistent store where users can register, you can collect money (once or on a recurring basis) and set the different membership levels if you want more than one.

 

THAT seems like it would make for a valuable SaaS solution someone could offer.

 

And generaing a complete Docker container sounds like a great idea as well. I'm in the process of trying to deploy my first rev of my back-end to a Windows host and it's not working as expected. Probably networking issues. Windows has lots of layers that I'm not familiar with -- I've aleays had IT people to help deal with that crap. 

 

Too many moving parts ... it needs to be simplified. 🙂

[Attila Kovacs 629]

2 minutes ago, David Schwartz said:

Too many moving parts

This is it.

[Fr0sT.Brutal 900]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:51 PM, Roger Cigol said:

If I feel a need for a bit of sarcasm I try to remember to add a hint such as < not! > after the sentence.

This one is industry standard

[Lars Fosdal 1792]

To decide if a library is relevant, start with identifying your needs. What are the must-haves.

Then, make list of options (i.e. different libs,  VCL, FMX, TMS, DevExpress, etc) and start ticking boxes.

All of these have a massive amount of functionality, so it is impossible to give a blanket recommendation.

 

To give f.x. DevExpress a "must have" status, depends entirely on your needs.

In the end, you need to decide if the price is worth it.